The Problem with FvK and FvF
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Join Date: Jul 2012
03-27-2013, 12:15 AM
Originally Posted by
I don't know. I'm a queue guy. Not in a PvP fleet, not elite or anything. Relatively new to pvp, here. Here's my experience, in this:
I once did a couple of pvp matches on my feds, got steamrolled, went back to pve. Then got bored with pve, and I tried pvp some more, this time on my KDF's, mostly. It still wasn't pretty.
Then I read up on builds and tactics, practised hard, tried different things and eventually got better. I now fly BoP's, Battlecruisers, Carriers and the occasional Raptor, with various degrees of success, but definitely pulling my weight. Flying my ships of choice I tend to approach the top of charts in damage and kills, now, even though I'm most definitely not a top KDF player. I was pleased when my tac in a BoP started to get top score in kills/damage, once in a while.
Now, here's the kicker. I recently checked back on my feds, with the knowledge I now had. I found I had accidentally gotten them decent traits (elusive, accurate, etc), and that I got them all the pre-S7 mk xii rep Sets, and various sets of mk xii [borg] weaponry - not perfect, but definitely competitive to the stuff I use on my KDF's.
I set up some decent builds, queued up on my tac, and my team lost big time. Tried again, wiped again. Both times I was the top damage dealer/killer, easily. Still, we got wiped big time because there was no inkling of team play or cohesion. I called targets, but nobody responded or acted on them. If I didn't, nobody else did, and everybody got picked off one by one - by packs of 2-3 KDF players.
Got the same experience queueing up on my sci and eng. Both still topping the charts quite often, and generally surviving alpha's my team members didn't - I like to think that's because I have in-depth experience in decloaking alpha strikes.
For me, there are two main differences between fed and kdf in open queue pvp.
1: the cloak, which lets you (KDF players and potentially those flying Defiants and Gal-X's) decide when to strike, giving you an edge, even though you generally give up precious survivability as a trade-off.
and 2: teamwork. And this one is the most important one, in my opinion. Almost all KDF queued matches I'm in has people calling targets, and if they don't, I will. Additionally, there's often crosshealing occurring naturally and people zipping over to get a teammate's attacker. These things hardly ever happen in open queued fed teams, in my experience. Even when I call targets it's only 1 or 2 people at best who focus fire.
Believe me, when Fed teams have good teamwork going, the kdf ships suddenly aren't that overpowered.
^THIS is the truth as I have observed it.^
It's why I thank the Great Maker for Kirking feds-else I'd never get any kills at all.
I run four KDF toons:
A L50 (orion)Tac from pre-S7 in a Norgh(Pre S7 Assimilated set (Polaron boat), all four components) or Hoh'sus(Fleet version, Pre S7 Omega MkXI set on Disruptors)
A L50 (orion) Sci pre-S7 in either a Kar'Fi (pre S7 Assimilated 4P), or B'rel(Pre S7 MkX Omega 3P).
A L50 (Joined Trill) Engie post-S7 in a Hegh'ta with MkX(!) Jem'set 3p and Polarons
A L49(Ferasan) Tac (recent-as in last couple months) in a Hegh'ta with 'drop gear' (generic stuff, Disruptor build.)
I don't own any post-S7 Rep gear
. I have four KDF toons and if I'm grinding at all, it's for my Fleet, (because that's how I rrroooww, rooww, rooaarrwww...that's what I Like) with the eventual outcome of buying Fleet gear to outfit them, instead of spending weeks to months to grind PvE (which has become dead boring to me. I ONLY do it often enough to support my Fleet's long journey to T5.)
There's the Resume', now for the meat of the matter...
When a fed team has their **** together in a 5x5 match, whether it's C&H or Arena, and my Puggies don't, we get our asses kicked. Period. When we do, it's 50/50 chance and usually nice and close (best kind of match-within 1 either way win/lose).
When they don't, it doesn't really matter WHAT kind of **** they have-if it were 3 bugs and 2 Temporals or 2 Bugs, a Kumari, 1 Temp and a Vesta, all tricked out witht he right consoles and lobi gear?
If the Feds don't play with their head out of their fourth point of contact, even my NEWEST toons, the Engie or the Kitty, can still rack up the kill-count. It's very simple-if the Feds have their **** together they're competitive, if they're GOOD and have their **** together, they'll dominate, but if (as is the usual case) they're out Kirking it Up by themselves and counting on bought hardware? well...that's where even the worst KDF will win, if not outright dominate to a ridiculously one-sided degree.
PvP, esp. que matches, depends heavily on teamwork to win-focus fire, cross healing, Targeted d-buffs, it doesn't matter if it's C&H or Arena, it doesn't matter what level you are, or whether you have the shiniest new toys, if your team sucks because they won't work together, you're going to lose the match even if you dominate the kill count, damage listing, or healing numbers.
****ty games I like to play as a Klink:
Fox/Hounds. (location: Arena match, space). Here's how it works:
I pick a bad target with my engie-in-a-BoP. (this game works best with an engie in a bop...)
I call the target, de-cloak alpha with DEM3, APO, BO and CRF2 with THY 1. This is NOT enough to drop most Feddie targets-it IS enough to get their attention, however, and make one or more of them burn buffs.
My wingmen, then subnuke the target/VM him, Hit him with Tractors and alphas of their own. This usually makes him burn up Tac teams, or Sci teams, or gets him tossed sci and engie teams-the idea is that the other TWO KDF are going to take his supporters out.
MY role, is to survive suddenly getting everyone's attention LONG enough, (RSP, RSF, MW, EPS, second copy of APO and TT) to run-away-with-pursuers. Endgame plan here, is to trade 1 ship (me) for 2-3 Feds thanks to my teammates.
This tends to work embarassingly well, seems that a lot of Fed players never LEARN that the engie hitting you with purple tickle-rays because his juice is going to engines and shields, isn't the guy you need to take out in a hurry.
I have taken this toon into matches where I died 3 or 4 times, was the ONLY KDF casualty, (and only score the Fed team got) while my pugmates have racked up 3 or 4 kills
every time I go down.
That's "Fox and Hounds." and with a Premade or Pugmade team, it works even BETTER- reason being that BoPs are universally known as "Soft targets", it wouldn't work in a Vor'cha, because those can take LOTS of damage and everyone KNOWS IT-you can't get the same "I'm gonna kill him, gonna kill him-yup-yup-yup" response in a Cruiser. It's the same kind of mentality that marketing people use when they get you to buy lockboxes or lottery tickets-the easy bonanza.
Feds fall for it, but so do KDF players when a Fed uses a variation of it-usually a Sci ship, Kumari, or other seemingly easy kill rolls out at about 11KM ahead of their fedball-the fedball in this case is waiting to trip their engine batteries, Deuterium, or APO and focus-fire the first decloaker that makes a go at their point man, while tossing said point-man heals/buffs to keep him dangling in front of an impatient KDF pug-group.
But the FED version requires actual TEAMWORK to pull off-for some reason, 'fox and hounds' works even when nobody's brought the idea up on the KDF side, and that's a lot to do with how under-powered KDF ships, esp. the ubiquitous Bird of Prey, are.
"when you're out of Birds of Prey, you're out of ships."