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Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 12,080
# 344
04-22-2013, 02:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by archoncryptic View Post
Yes, the Tachyokinetic Converter will get the same buff. I think I'm getting a little too far off-topic here, though, so I'm going to leave further discussion of turn rate consoles and such to other threads.
First of all, thank you for answering that.

Still, that is somewhat relevant to the discussion of turn with the Rom birds, eh? Not that many posts back, somebody said the Mogai turns like a brick.

For my guy:

@32/25 Eng Power - it's got a Turn of 17.5
@99/100 Eng Power - it's got a Turn of 24.9

That's with no RCS consoles. If I add one (Blue Mk VI +22.5%):

@32/25 Eng Power - it's got a Turn of 20.0
@99/100 Eng Power - it's got a Turn of 27.4

That's with no points in Impulse Thrusters, no points in Engine Performance, an Impulse instead of a Hyper-Impulse Engine, not while cloaked, not using Attack Pattern Omega, not using Attack Pattern Alpha, not using Evasive Maneuvers, not using Emergency Power to Engines, only level 30, Mk VI gear, etc, etc, etc.

As dalnar's mentioned a couple (a few? heh, several? in multiple threads) times, one of the reasons for the DHC's increased damage is because of its limited arc. That 45 arc should provide a challenge and those that meet that challenge are rewarded with the greater damage the DHCs can provide.

What should that base be? What should the turn be for a ship without any effort outside of the most basic gearing, eh? If a person wants to turn better, shouldn't it be a case of making that investment in turning better? Skills, gear, abilities?

And it's not just that either, is it? Chroniton torps/mines, tractor beams, tractor mines, warp plasma, theta, targeting engine subsystem, viral matrix, grav wells, etc, etc, etc. There are other things that can be done to reduce the movement of a target (whether in PvE or PvP) for a ship that might not be able to turn like a top, no?

It's a MMO - endgame content is pretty much team content. So with the combination of what the person wanting to turn zippitydoodah can bring and what somebody else on the team can bring to make targets move like a slug...what kind of turn is actually needed?

Here's some turn stats on my other guys (ordered by ascending base turn and then alphabetically)...

Mirror Vo'Quv @ 33/25 Eng (no RCS/Tachyo - Hyper Mk XII [Aux][Spd][Turn] - 6 SIT/6 SEP)
Base - 5.0
1/4 Imp - 6.5
APO - 8.7
APA - 8.8
EM - 13.0

Mirror Star @ 50/25 Eng (no RCS/Tachyo - Jem Mk XI Engine - 9 SIT/6 SEP)
Base - 7.0
1/4 Imp - 11.4
EPS - 12.6
EM - 29.1
EPS+EM - 32.1

Mirror Vor'cha @ 55/25 Eng (no RCS/Tachyo - Jem Mk XI Engine - 9 SIT/6 SEP)
Base - 10.0
1/4 Imp - 18.0
EPS - 20.2
EM - 50.0
EPS+EM - 54.4

Chel Grett @ 54/24 Eng (Tachyo - Aegis Engine - 9 SIT/6 SEP)
Base - 13.0
1/4 Imp - 25.6
EPS - 29.1
APO - 41.2
EM - 71.2
EPS+EM - 78.1

JHEC @ 50/30 Eng (Tachyo - Aegis Engine - 9 SIT/3 SEP)
Base - 13.0
1/4 Imp - 25.1
EPS - 28.4
FMG - 29.1
APO - 35.7
EM - 69.3
EPS+EM - 76.3

Mirror Deep @ 43/25 Eng (RCS Mk XI - Jem Mk XI Engine - 6 SIT/3 SEP)
Base - 13.0
1/4 Imp - 26.1
EM - 67.4

Mirror Advanced @ 47/25 Eng (no RCS/Tachyo - Jem Mk XI Engine - 9 SIT/6 SEP)
Base - 16.0
1/4 Imp - 29.7
APA - 44.5
APO - 48.8
EM - 85.7

Hegh'ta @ 50/25 (RCS Mk XI - Breen Mk XI Engine - 6 SIT/6 SEP)
Base - 21.0
1/4 Imp - 44.1
EM - 124.0


Some will notice how I listed the buffs, only combining certain buffs. That's because certain buffs override (do not stack) other buffs. If you APA, then APO - the APO overrides the APA buff - then EM - it overrides the APO buff...as far as the turn is concerned. It's about buff cycling/management.

Some may have noticed the numbers appear off here and there. Look at the two Tacs, eh? One gets a better boost out of APA than APO while the other gets a better boost out of APO than APA?

Mirror Vo'Quv (84 Attack Patterns - APA3 +113.6% - APO1 +110.3%)
Mirror Advanced (84 Attack Patterns - APA3 +113.6% - APO1 +146.9%)

What's the APO1 for the other two guys with it?

Chel Grett (84 Attack Patterns - APO1 +155.3%)
JHEC (0 Attack Patterns - APO1 +106.0%)

It's not just the Attack Patterns that buffs the APO buff - it's also Engine Power (with DR, mind you). It's something folks might not consider while building their toons or playing. You could have two guys with the exact same builds outside of points spent in Warp Core Efficiency/Potential - and - the guy with the lower Engine Power is going to get less of a buff from their APO. It's something to keep in mind with the -10 Engine Power that the Warbirds are getting too...

...which is where it does kind of stay on topic, imho, even though it kind of goes all over the place. These ships aren't a separate game. Determining their turn rates (including whatever changes are made to other gear/mechanics) - is still going to be part of STO - affect the rest of STO. Trying to get the Warbirds to a certain point will affect where the current ships already are.

Which goes back to the question - what effort should be involved for somebody to keep those DHCs on target? What effort from the individual and what effort from the team? What should be the base? Look at my Hegh'ta up there, eh? That 1/4 Impulse vs. what some of the other guys need APO to get near. Then the number for the EM? Wheeeeeeeeee!

It's like the changes that were made to the Subterfuge BOFFs - where it was realized that the % instead of a flat bonus could provide some whacky scaling issues. The same has been an issue with Turn. All those Cruiser guys complaining about the Escort guys...

...so when somebody says that something turns like a brick that you don't believe should be turning like a brick, ask them what their build is - what their Eng Power is at - what abilities they're using...so it doesn't turn like a brick. If it's something that should turn like a brick but it is turning more like a stack of bricks - again, what is the person doing? Then adjustments can be made, no?

There are so many variables involved with so many of the elements in STO. Some are trying to do everything they can to make something happen - and - it's just not happening. Some just expect everything to happen at a baseline and not have to do anything. It seems that Cryptic has been fostering more to the latter crowd in the past year or so than the former. I get it, casual players - more revenue - it keeps the game around and that's a good thing. Still though...one does continue to hope for a little more balance...
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder - R'ebel, Romulan, Haakona
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba - Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethean, M.Qin

Last edited by virusdancer; 04-22-2013 at 02:11 PM.