Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 1 Rock, paper, scissors?
02-12-2010, 11:39 AM
During one of the (many) debates (arguments) that are here in this forum about two specific crowd control abilities (Viral Matrix, SubNucleonic Beam), someone brought up the phrase "rock, paper, scissors."

This got me to wondering, why is Science Team slated to remove VM (a science BOff skill) in an upcoming patch?

If it is a "rock, paper, scissors" system that Cryptic is seeking, then should not a skill from one BOff branch counter abilities from another? For instance: Engineering teams counter Science debuffs, Science Teams counter Tactical debuffs, Tactical Teams counter Engineering debuffs.

The various "Team" skills aren't necessarily the appropriate counter for everything, but I think you understand the overall idea I'm getting at.


Just a random thought...
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2
02-12-2010, 11:56 AM
I guess if you think of it in RL terms:

Who is better to deal with hackers? Thugs or other Hackers.

Basically they counter their own branch because they are best trained and equipped to do so?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 3
02-12-2010, 12:06 PM
STO doesn't have an intransitive balance model anyways. There isn't even any kind of counter to most of the abilities. Only the really drastic ones like Viral Matrix have a counter at all. Try to counter something like feedback pulse or reverse shield polarity. Not going to happen...
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 4
02-12-2010, 12:21 PM
E-war type effects always create emo posts from ppl claiming they need removing ect, not that they do not need adjusting but removing them s just absurd.


Look at the examples given to justify the removal, all of them have actually never been experianced apart from on paper....the 5 maxed science ship example while theoretically possable actually needs all the victim ships to be slower on the draw, all in range of whitch ever science ship assigned to jam it up as well as pretty much sitting stationary.


I agree there need to be available counters and the cooldown/stacking issue needs looking at but removal is a stupid option asked for by ppl looking for summat to blame fo there own incompetance and if it ever is removed the same ppl will be starting new threads about whatever the next thing is they need to blame for losing.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 5
02-12-2010, 12:36 PM
Personally I think all abilities should have immunities equal to twice the intended duration that is applied when the original ability is. IE if VM lasts 20 seconds then you get a 40 second immunity timer. If it runs the full 20 then you have another 20 secs of immunity. If removed immediately you have 39 seconds of immunity. This way it keeps the abilities useful while not making them overly powerful.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 6
02-12-2010, 12:38 PM
Incidentally, medical team already removed VM, but currently someone else has to apply it to you.

The change is that you can use Medical Team on yourself while held, thus you can cure yourself.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 7
02-12-2010, 12:43 PM
All the snare/rooty/hold skills definately need some kind of immunity after use even if its small and certainly should not be stackable on the same person.
Lt. Commander
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Posts: 120
# 8
02-12-2010, 06:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rothnang
STO doesn't have an intransitive balance model anyways. There isn't even any kind of counter to most of the abilities. Only the really drastic ones like Viral Matrix have a counter at all. Try to counter something like feedback pulse or reverse shield polarity. Not going to happen...
Not until VM is nerfed, I'm sure RSP and Feedback pulse will be added to the ever constant list for complainers.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 9
02-12-2010, 07:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rothnang
STO doesn't have an intransitive balance model anyways. There isn't even any kind of counter to most of the abilities. Only the really drastic ones like Viral Matrix have a counter at all. Try to counter something like feedback pulse or reverse shield polarity. Not going to happen...
um there are counters to both of these

cannons(feedback dosnt work on em) and energy modulation(shoots through shields) respectively

almost everything in this game has a counter if you understand the game mechanics

sci team counters vm but only after vm is applied

the counter to escorts is cruisers and the counters to cruisers is sci ships and the counter to sci ships is escorts ect

it just deepends on how you view the game and the word "counter"
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 10
02-12-2010, 09:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rothnang
STO doesn't have an intransitive balance model anyways. There isn't even any kind of counter to most of the abilities. Only the really drastic ones like Viral Matrix have a counter at all. Try to counter something like feedback pulse or reverse shield polarity. Not going to happen...
Everything that runs off a power system has a disable. If you're fully boosting that skill and stacking EPS, it gets a bit harder to take down, but it's just as doable with some teamwork. My group removes RSP fairly regularly. It isn't an impossible task or a theoretical presumption.

There are also the skills to get around them some if you don't like hitting the systems:

VM has Omega and Sci Team.
RSP has Energy Mod and non Beams.
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