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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
I keep getting spam in Zone about "it's an OP thing", "K space is OP", etc wtf are they talking about? When I win it's cause the FED just zerg every node and we back door them... when we loose it's cause 2-3 fed sit on nodes... They have cruisers, they can hold a node better then we can with Raptors and BoPs... What am I missing that has the FED so up in arms about this "op thing", that all strait FED pvpers are going to gripe about till we Klings are nerfed...???
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2
02-18-2010, 11:59 PM
If you're in Tier 2, there's no way the Feds should be complaining about losing to Klingon "OP". My guess is you're in Tier 2 if you're talking about Klingons having only Raptors and BoPs. If anything, the Feds should be slaughtering you guys. If not, they're incompetent. Decent Fed players at Tier 2 rip Klingons apart.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 3
02-19-2010, 12:04 AM
If you kill someone with something they dont know, you are usualy described as OP, ort HAX user..happens alot on both sides.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 4
02-19-2010, 12:44 AM
That's the mating call of the terribads.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 5
02-19-2010, 01:35 AM
Going to try and take a stab at this;

It's not that Klingon's are actually overpowered (except for maybe t1). It's just the design of the game makes Klingon's appear overpowerd because the situations in which most players will end up pvping greatly favor the Klingon style of play.

What do I mean?

Most players will be PvPing in random groups put together by the PvP que system. - Random groups greatly favor the Klingon advantage of cloak and unleash hell much more-so than the fed style of having to ball up and heal chain etc.

Most players will not know how to PvP well. - PvPing from a group that is based off 'everyone unclock and shoot him' is easier to execute at a basic level than trying to counter everyone opening fire on one person.

Most players tend to rush off into the fray after entering a match. - Fed PvP play requires everyone to form up together first off before attempting any action, Klingon players with cloak can warpoff to their hearts content and worry about forming together later.

Also a few PvP gameplay issues not directly related to Klingons at all greatly hamper Federation random teams.

The biggest of these is no auto-teaming. Fed groups to stand a chance in PvP need to be set in a team where heals can be thrown toward the Klingon's called target immediatly. What happens in most matches however is some Fed players will warp off before anyone can even attempt to team up, and once they have warped off initially the fed's chance of victory has gont down dramatically. Simple auto-teaming players in PvP (regardless of a person auto-team settings) will go a long way toward making PvP feel more balanced.

This is a big one;

A lot of the more skilled Fed PvP players after losing badly over and over due to being teamed with people who simply refuse to try and work together have given up and gone to the Klingon side. It's simply no fun to lose 15-0 or 15-1 repeatidly when people refuse to stcik at spawn long enough to let you send out team invites, and even when you do invite refuse to follow simply direction and warp off alone.The prevailing feeling is that by going over to the Klingon side we will stand a real shot in a far larget % of the games simply because being, A; there are less stupid players, and B; as basic level PvP doesn't require as much coordination. (Not saying Klingon's dnt have to owrk together just as much at the high end, simply that at the low end Klingons can function on a winnable level with less complex coordination)

I'm leveling an alt purely to PvP with;

I've played In a fed PvP group (all randoms, but we found each other and stuck together for several hours) that worked well together, and won probably 80% of our matches. We all went in as a team, balled up, and figured out a basic strategy ahead of time to try and counter the Klingon inital alpha strike. (Nothing complex, just targeted player throws full pwoer to engines and evasives away to drag Klingon pursuers through our ball while we atempt to heal them as long as possible)

But then I took the same character out agian the next day (full support/heal setup t2 sci vessel) and never had a match that was even remotly close. Despite my repated attempts I just couldn't get anyone else to form up in a basic defencive setup, much less get themto understand the basics of trying to survive the Klingon alpha strike. - And we stood no chance.

Basically a Fed PvP group requires more fundamentals to function on a basic competative level, yet due the the natured of PvP as a playstyle for Fed vs Klinsons, Klingon players will nearly always have a much stronger grasp on these basics. If we can't get the Fed players even on a team together, how will we ever have a chance to keep the Fed player Klingons initially target alive?

So what is the result? I (as another of my friends has previously) made a Klingon to PvP with. Where I know I'll at least stand a chance in a random group most times, and even when I lose we wont be blown out by 3 or more times our score. - Thus the Fed side loses another compitent player and the ratio of compitent/incompitent gets worse.

So what do I suggest?

First as I stated earlier, automatic auto-teaming. No way around this, if you're in a PvP match you're on a team together. Teams are absolutely vital to standing a chance, without them you cant target heals/etc viabley, not nor can you strategise/call targets/etc.

Second, fed players need a place to re-group after all being killed without having to worry about being picked off one by one before they can form up. Respawn players in an area that is PvP immune for 30 seconds after the last person was killed. Just enough time to get respawned and in formation again.

(T1 only) Increase handling of Fed starter ship. There is simply no way for feds to compete at t1. Cloak, massive manuverability, and universal BO slots. (+ generally a big equipment advantage) means in T1 a single Klingon can often beat serverl Fed players at once. I'm not saying give them BoP manuverability, not at all, but make the Fed starter ship handle like their basic Science vessel. In t1 Fed ships don't have any of their advantaged that counter their disadvantages yet. And In this tier fed players lose so bad they will likely give up on PvP for good if they dont know better,

Again, not saying Klingon's are actually OP, just that the game makes them appear to be. Besides the T1 fed starter ship I don't feel the actual balance needs tweaking at all, just a few basics that decided how players ar able to interact and work as a team.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 6
02-19-2010, 02:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yargnit View Post
Going to try and take a stab at this;

It's not that Klingon's are actually overpowered (except for maybe t1). It's just the design of the game makes Klingon's appear overpowerd because the situations in which most players will end up pvping greatly favor the Klingon style of play.

What do I mean?

Most players will be PvPing in random groups put together by the PvP que system. - Random groups greatly favor the Klingon advantage of cloak and unleash hell much more-so than the fed style of having to ball up and heal chain etc.

Most players will not know how to PvP well. - PvPing from a group that is based off 'everyone unclock and shoot him' is easier to execute at a basic level than trying to counter everyone opening fire on one person.

Most players tend to rush off into the fray after entering a match. - Fed PvP play requires everyone to form up together first off before attempting any action, Klingon players with cloak can warpoff to their hearts content and worry about forming together later.

Also a few PvP gameplay issues not directly related to Klingons at all greatly hamper Federation random teams.

The biggest of these is no auto-teaming. Fed groups to stand a chance in PvP need to be set in a team where heals can be thrown toward the Klingon's called target immediatly. What happens in most matches however is some Fed players will warp off before anyone can even attempt to team up, and once they have warped off initially the fed's chance of victory has gont down dramatically. Simple auto-teaming players in PvP (regardless of a person auto-team settings) will go a long way toward making PvP feel more balanced.

This is a big one;

A lot of the more skilled Fed PvP players after losing badly over and over due to being teamed with people who simply refuse to try and work together have given up and gone to the Klingon side. It's simply no fun to lose 15-0 or 15-1 repeatidly when people refuse to stcik at spawn long enough to let you send out team invites, and even when you do invite refuse to follow simply direction and warp off alone.The prevailing feeling is that by going over to the Klingon side we will stand a real shot in a far larget % of the games simply because being, A; there are less stupid players, and B; as basic level PvP doesn't require as much coordination. (Not saying Klingon's dnt have to owrk together just as much at the high end, simply that at the low end Klingons can function on a winnable level with less complex coordination)

I'm leveling an alt purely to PvP with;

I've played In a fed PvP group (all randoms, but we found each other and stuck together for several hours) that worked well together, and won probably 80% of our matches. We all went in as a team, balled up, and figured out a basic strategy ahead of time to try and counter the Klingon inital alpha strike. (Nothing complex, just targeted player throws full pwoer to engines and evasives away to drag Klingon pursuers through our ball while we atempt to heal them as long as possible)

But then I took the same character out agian the next day (full support/heal setup t2 sci vessel) and never had a match that was even remotly close. Despite my repated attempts I just couldn't get anyone else to form up in a basic defencive setup, much less get themto understand the basics of trying to survive the Klingon alpha strike. - And we stood no chance.

Basically a Fed PvP group requires more fundamentals to function on a basic competative level, yet due the the natured of PvP as a playstyle for Fed vs Klinsons, Klingon players will nearly always have a much stronger grasp on these basics. If we can't get the Fed players even on a team together, how will we ever have a chance to keep the Fed player Klingons initially target alive?

So what is the result? I (as another of my friends has previously) made a Klingon to PvP with. Where I know I'll at least stand a chance in a random group most times, and even when I lose we wont be blown out by 3 or more times our score. - Thus the Fed side loses another compitent player and the ratio of compitent/incompitent gets worse.

So what do I suggest?

First as I stated earlier, automatic auto-teaming. No way around this, if you're in a PvP match you're on a team together. Teams are absolutely vital to standing a chance, without them you cant target heals/etc viabley, not nor can you strategise/call targets/etc.

Second, fed players need a place to re-group after all being killed without having to worry about being picked off one by one before they can form up. Respawn players in an area that is PvP immune for 30 seconds after the last person was killed. Just enough time to get respawned and in formation again.

(T1 only) Increase handling of Fed starter ship. There is simply no way for feds to compete at t1. Cloak, massive manuverability, and universal BO slots. (+ generally a big equipment advantage) means in T1 a single Klingon can often beat serverl Fed players at once. I'm not saying give them BoP manuverability, not at all, but make the Fed starter ship handle like their basic Science vessel. In t1 Fed ships don't have any of their advantaged that counter their disadvantages yet. And In this tier fed players lose so bad they will likely give up on PvP for good if they dont know better,

Again, not saying Klingon's are actually OP, just that the game makes them appear to be. Besides the T1 fed starter ship I don't feel the actual balance needs tweaking at all, just a few basics that decided how players ar able to interact and work as a team.
This sums alot of it up pretty well. Here lately I have been doing alot more of the Kerat war zone because as a fed you either find Klingons on the map or there is the chance of getting lumped into the Klingon side and fighting the other feds.

My observation is that most feds are not even remotely built for PVP. Some don't even take Sci Team as a default BO skill. Not because they are stupid but because they PVE first and you get by with more in PVE then PVP. I find myself killing fellow feds one right after the other in that instance alot of times for that reason. I leveled up thru PVP from LTC-RA5 then PVE'd after so my build has had to suffer the cloaked alpha followed by VM and FBP etc...I understand the counters.

The last thing that I think effects this is the shear amount of trash talking some klingons do about how obviously wonderfull they are vs these same feds that haven't figured PVP out comming to that side of the game so late. I have run into my fair share of morons both sides that think they are much better then they really are. Should they get their hands held or a hug after a 15-0 defeat no, but if we want better PVP across the board I think they do need to be led in the right direction.

I was sort of lucky leveling up with the first wave of Klingons that got to BG5, I never waited for a que. These guys at RA5 don't get nearly the practice or experience now because all the BG5's have stopped playing now due to the lack of content so it's tough for them to get any better.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 7
02-19-2010, 06:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yargnit View Post
Going to try and take a stab at this;

It's not that Klingon's are actually overpowered (except for maybe t1). It's just the design of the game makes Klingon's appear overpowerd because the situations in which most players will end up pvping greatly favor the Klingon style of play.

What do I mean?

Most players will be PvPing in random groups put together by the PvP que system. - Random groups greatly favor the Klingon advantage of cloak and unleash hell much more-so than the fed style of having to ball up and heal chain etc.

Most players will not know how to PvP well. - PvPing from a group that is based off 'everyone unclock and shoot him' is easier to execute at a basic level than trying to counter everyone opening fire on one person.

Most players tend to rush off into the fray after entering a match. - Fed PvP play requires everyone to form up together first off before attempting any action, Klingon players with cloak can warpoff to their hearts content and worry about forming together later.

Also a few PvP gameplay issues not directly related to Klingons at all greatly hamper Federation random teams.

The biggest of these is no auto-teaming. Fed groups to stand a chance in PvP need to be set in a team where heals can be thrown toward the Klingon's called target immediatly. What happens in most matches however is some Fed players will warp off before anyone can even attempt to team up, and once they have warped off initially the fed's chance of victory has gont down dramatically. Simple auto-teaming players in PvP (regardless of a person auto-team settings) will go a long way toward making PvP feel more balanced.

This is a big one;

A lot of the more skilled Fed PvP players after losing badly over and over due to being teamed with people who simply refuse to try and work together have given up and gone to the Klingon side. It's simply no fun to lose 15-0 or 15-1 repeatidly when people refuse to stcik at spawn long enough to let you send out team invites, and even when you do invite refuse to follow simply direction and warp off alone.The prevailing feeling is that by going over to the Klingon side we will stand a real shot in a far larget % of the games simply because being, A; there are less stupid players, and B; as basic level PvP doesn't require as much coordination. (Not saying Klingon's dnt have to owrk together just as much at the high end, simply that at the low end Klingons can function on a winnable level with less complex coordination)

I'm leveling an alt purely to PvP with;

I've played In a fed PvP group (all randoms, but we found each other and stuck together for several hours) that worked well together, and won probably 80% of our matches. We all went in as a team, balled up, and figured out a basic strategy ahead of time to try and counter the Klingon inital alpha strike. (Nothing complex, just targeted player throws full pwoer to engines and evasives away to drag Klingon pursuers through our ball while we atempt to heal them as long as possible)

But then I took the same character out agian the next day (full support/heal setup t2 sci vessel) and never had a match that was even remotly close. Despite my repated attempts I just couldn't get anyone else to form up in a basic defencive setup, much less get themto understand the basics of trying to survive the Klingon alpha strike. - And we stood no chance.

Basically a Fed PvP group requires more fundamentals to function on a basic competative level, yet due the the natured of PvP as a playstyle for Fed vs Klinsons, Klingon players will nearly always have a much stronger grasp on these basics. If we can't get the Fed players even on a team together, how will we ever have a chance to keep the Fed player Klingons initially target alive?

So what is the result? I (as another of my friends has previously) made a Klingon to PvP with. Where I know I'll at least stand a chance in a random group most times, and even when I lose we wont be blown out by 3 or more times our score. - Thus the Fed side loses another compitent player and the ratio of compitent/incompitent gets worse.

So what do I suggest?

First as I stated earlier, automatic auto-teaming. No way around this, if you're in a PvP match you're on a team together. Teams are absolutely vital to standing a chance, without them you cant target heals/etc viabley, not nor can you strategise/call targets/etc.

Second, fed players need a place to re-group after all being killed without having to worry about being picked off one by one before they can form up. Respawn players in an area that is PvP immune for 30 seconds after the last person was killed. Just enough time to get respawned and in formation again.

(T1 only) Increase handling of Fed starter ship. There is simply no way for feds to compete at t1. Cloak, massive manuverability, and universal BO slots. (+ generally a big equipment advantage) means in T1 a single Klingon can often beat serverl Fed players at once. I'm not saying give them BoP manuverability, not at all, but make the Fed starter ship handle like their basic Science vessel. In t1 Fed ships don't have any of their advantaged that counter their disadvantages yet. And In this tier fed players lose so bad they will likely give up on PvP for good if they dont know better,

Again, not saying Klingon's are actually OP, just that the game makes them appear to be. Besides the T1 fed starter ship I don't feel the actual balance needs tweaking at all, just a few basics that decided how players ar able to interact and work as a team.
All that matters is t5 pvp ,stuff the rest.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 8
02-20-2010, 03:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yargnit View Post
Going to try and take a stab at this;

It's not that Klingon's are actually overpowered (except for maybe t1). It's just the design of the game makes Klingon's appear overpowerd because the situations in which most players will end up pvping greatly favor the Klingon style of play.

What do I mean?

Most players will be PvPing in random groups put together by the PvP que system. - Random groups greatly favor the Klingon advantage of cloak and unleash hell much more-so than the fed style of having to ball up and heal chain etc.

Most players will not know how to PvP well. - PvPing from a group that is based off 'everyone unclock and shoot him' is easier to execute at a basic level than trying to counter everyone opening fire on one person.

Most players tend to rush off into the fray after entering a match. - Fed PvP play requires everyone to form up together first off before attempting any action, Klingon players with cloak can warpoff to their hearts content and worry about forming together later.

Also a few PvP gameplay issues not directly related to Klingons at all greatly hamper Federation random teams.

The biggest of these is no auto-teaming. Fed groups to stand a chance in PvP need to be set in a team where heals can be thrown toward the Klingon's called target immediatly. What happens in most matches however is some Fed players will warp off before anyone can even attempt to team up, and once they have warped off initially the fed's chance of victory has gont down dramatically. Simple auto-teaming players in PvP (regardless of a person auto-team settings) will go a long way toward making PvP feel more balanced.

This is a big one;

A lot of the more skilled Fed PvP players after losing badly over and over due to being teamed with people who simply refuse to try and work together have given up and gone to the Klingon side. It's simply no fun to lose 15-0 or 15-1 repeatidly when people refuse to stcik at spawn long enough to let you send out team invites, and even when you do invite refuse to follow simply direction and warp off alone.The prevailing feeling is that by going over to the Klingon side we will stand a real shot in a far larget % of the games simply because being, A; there are less stupid players, and B; as basic level PvP doesn't require as much coordination. (Not saying Klingon's dnt have to owrk together just as much at the high end, simply that at the low end Klingons can function on a winnable level with less complex coordination)

I'm leveling an alt purely to PvP with;

I've played In a fed PvP group (all randoms, but we found each other and stuck together for several hours) that worked well together, and won probably 80% of our matches. We all went in as a team, balled up, and figured out a basic strategy ahead of time to try and counter the Klingon inital alpha strike. (Nothing complex, just targeted player throws full pwoer to engines and evasives away to drag Klingon pursuers through our ball while we atempt to heal them as long as possible)

But then I took the same character out agian the next day (full support/heal setup t2 sci vessel) and never had a match that was even remotly close. Despite my repated attempts I just couldn't get anyone else to form up in a basic defencive setup, much less get themto understand the basics of trying to survive the Klingon alpha strike. - And we stood no chance.

Basically a Fed PvP group requires more fundamentals to function on a basic competative level, yet due the the natured of PvP as a playstyle for Fed vs Klinsons, Klingon players will nearly always have a much stronger grasp on these basics. If we can't get the Fed players even on a team together, how will we ever have a chance to keep the Fed player Klingons initially target alive?

So what is the result? I (as another of my friends has previously) made a Klingon to PvP with. Where I know I'll at least stand a chance in a random group most times, and even when I lose we wont be blown out by 3 or more times our score. - Thus the Fed side loses another compitent player and the ratio of compitent/incompitent gets worse.

So what do I suggest?

First as I stated earlier, automatic auto-teaming. No way around this, if you're in a PvP match you're on a team together. Teams are absolutely vital to standing a chance, without them you cant target heals/etc viabley, not nor can you strategise/call targets/etc.

Second, fed players need a place to re-group after all being killed without having to worry about being picked off one by one before they can form up. Respawn players in an area that is PvP immune for 30 seconds after the last person was killed. Just enough time to get respawned and in formation again.

(T1 only) Increase handling of Fed starter ship. There is simply no way for feds to compete at t1. Cloak, massive manuverability, and universal BO slots. (+ generally a big equipment advantage) means in T1 a single Klingon can often beat serverl Fed players at once. I'm not saying give them BoP manuverability, not at all, but make the Fed starter ship handle like their basic Science vessel. In t1 Fed ships don't have any of their advantaged that counter their disadvantages yet. And In this tier fed players lose so bad they will likely give up on PvP for good if they dont know better,

Again, not saying Klingon's are actually OP, just that the game makes them appear to be. Besides the T1 fed starter ship I don't feel the actual balance needs tweaking at all, just a few basics that decided how players ar able to interact and work as a team.
yea i have to 100% agree with this - i like to pvp in general with other MMOs (not the best by a long shot, i admit) and have very much blamed the klinks in other posts for being OP, with reference to cloaking, as im sure many feds have blamed them as such. but reading this post sums up WHY klingons win so often. its how the game mechanics have been programed. far more organisation is required to win on the feds side. but the annoying factor still remains after this: i was in a pvp group earlier today and we were defeating the klinkies 5-1 ... so what happened? ... the klinks simply went into stealth and didnt re-emerge ... kinda defeats the object really - the only way round this is to put say a 2 or 3 min c/d on the cloak or make it so that the cloaked ship will auto de-cloak after maybe 60 secs or so in cloak form, thus entering the cooldown phase.
but just to summarise, this explanation is spot on!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 9
02-19-2010, 01:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by GOOSEBUMP View Post
I keep getting spam in Zone about "it's an OP thing", "K space is OP", etc wtf are they talking about?
Perception is a big part of it. I will try to explain.

Teir 1: Both sides are reletively balanced in our newbie ships. A weak team mainly comes from inexperience at this point.

Teir 2: Fed side obtains their holy trinity of ships, Escort, Cruiser, Science (DPS, Tank, Support). They have great synergy when they stick together. Klingons on the other hand do not have this. We only have two types of fragile DPS ships. So, at this stage of the game, the Feds have a very large advantage. Careful use of cloaking and coordination of your team is your only chance of winning. Even then, it is often not enough. Many Klingon players lose the drive to win and just suicide again and again just to get it over with.

Teir 3: Klingons finally obtain Battlecruisers (tank). We still do not have our holy trinity, but it is an improvement. The addition of Battlecruisers evens the game a lot, and Klingons have a much better chance of winning a game. This is where Feds really start complaining. They went from easy wins in T2, to T3 where klingons can win quite a bit more. Klingons are seemingly WAY stronger, therefore they cry that Klingons are "OP".

Teir 4: Same as T3, we still do not have our holy trinity to match theirs, but the Feds are a bit more used to fighting Battlecruisers. This is also where the really cheap science powers start to show up, and are heavily abused by the Fed Science ships. Klingons have a very good chance of winning a game, but Feds realistically still have a solid advantage.

Teir 5: At long last, Klingons obtain their holy trinity of ships. BoP/Raptor (DPS), Battlecruiser (Tank), Carrier (support). We are finally able to fight the feds on even ground, and we have a ship capable of abusing science powers as well as they can. HOWEVER, balance shifts into our favor quite a bit, due to player skill level. By this point, all Klingon players have done a TON of PvP, and we are very good at it. Our characters and ships are built specifically for PvP. Feds at this teir however get a big flood of new PvPers. All those people who leveled up through PvE content are now jumping into the PvP game. These people seriously lack in skill and their PvE setups are poor. It is very easy to tell when I fight a fed who is new to PvP. They are very quick and easy kills.

And so, to answer your question, that is how Klingons are "OP" in space. We really arent OP, the feds are just used to fighting us at the lower levels where we are lacking vital ships. It is only at T5, where we can truely take on the feds with the same stuff they have.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 10
02-19-2010, 01:14 AM
Its also about group composition. 5 FED escorts are very likely to loose agains 5 Neghvars and vice versa (if they are on same skill level).
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