Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
In the past week, from both the Federation and Klingon perspectives, I'm running more and more into Federation Science Ships using Engineering and Science Skill stacking to effectively make their ships invulernable. Enough they can literally tank 3 or 4 cruisers without even losing 50% of their shields.

Some of them even use the Rogue Federation Bug in the Borg Hunt to go griefing (killing fellow federation from completing the mission goals).



So let me ask you this, this overpowered or necessary?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2
03-06-2010, 12:29 AM
It is only overpowered when you have not learned the tricks of the various trades.

Griefing in Borg hunt is something I do on occasion just for fun when I am bord. I have more fun when I am outnumbered 5 to one and they give me a fight making me have to hit and run and catch the lone stragler, or someone engaged with the borg, but hey that is the nature of the game. Deal with it. If it is too agravating for you switch to another Borg Hunt Instance until you find one without any griefers.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 3
03-06-2010, 12:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azurian View Post
So let me ask you this, this overpowered or necessary?
Overpowered. It'll get changed at some point.

Not for PvP reasons, there's ways around it there, not for science vessels self buffing but rather, for PvE raidisode content. As it currently stands, any end game content would pretty much have to have a way to bypass shields, like Borg do with shield draining and Undine with lots of plasma dots.

The reason for it is two fold.

First, science skills can scale too much if you focus on them. With the deflector dish and 4 science consoles, that's a lot of extra skill you tack on to something. Makes it possible to get an ST III that has 60% reduced damage to shields. Not sure what engineering's extend shields III can get to with 125 shield power, but it is no doubt pretty impressive.

Second, how shield damage reduction works. You just multiply it, one after the other. For resists, DR is built in. If you had 60% resists, you take 1/1.6 = 62.5%. If you had 2 60% resist buffs, for a total of 120%, you're looking at taking 1/2.2 or 45% of the damage. Now, the same thing but with shield damage reduction buffs. With 1 60% shield damage reduction buff, your shields only take 40% of the damage. With two, your shields take 16% of the damage thrown their way. Combine that with a resilient shield to reduce the bleedthrough to 5%.

And if you can do that to your tank, well, every last space boss enemy has to have an anti-shield ability or else the fire power it needs to punch past shields will shred the hull.

Beyond the shield aspect, the whole science skill issue puts the devs into a bit of a bind as well.

A science power should be useful in and of itself. And it should scale decently with its associated skills. But then you toss in a focus on that skill from gear as well and suddenly that scaling get rather ugly. If the devs make the power start out weaker, then the powers are bad without enough skill to back it up. If they make them scale poorly, then without a lot of console support, they aren't good, as well as less incentive for players to spend points on the skills.

I expect at some point science consoles will get nailed so that they don't stack or else get some pretty harsh DR past a certain point. Either one would have implications for people that focus on a narrow set of science skills supported primarily by one set of skills, although the DR method would hurt less.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 4
03-06-2010, 04:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Axterix
...
Nerf because of PvE ? Thats just not true... did you try the new Borg TF ? The damage of all those Probes and Spheres is so high that even with those high absorbtion buffs on my healing abilities people are blown to pieces, because the long cooldowns on my abilities are overpowered by the sheer damage incomming.

And I'am not talking about the Shield Drain of the Cubes, only about the damage all those beams doo.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 5
03-31-2010, 12:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LnD-Rash View Post
Nerf because of PvE ? Thats just not true... did you try the new Borg TF ? The damage of all those Probes and Spheres is so high that even with those high absorbtion buffs on my healing abilities people are blown to pieces, because the long cooldowns on my abilities are overpowered by the sheer damage incomming.
Yeah, nerfed because of PvE.

Done the Borg thing, it wasn't so bad. That encounter has a lot of enemy ships, so you have multiple people getting hit. Wasn't that hard to keep the tank alive. And, for that matter, most of the team wasn't that hard either. Biggest problem there was range. Having only a 5k range on some powers is a big drawback when people are spread out. Not as focused on healing as I could be either.

And that is in PUGs, where people have poor power choices and do way less DPS than they should be capable of. So they aren't as tough as they should be nor do they eliminate incoming dps as quickly as they should.

What I'm talking about though, why it will get nerfed, is because of what will happen if they introduce a single tough boss like enemy. It'd make it real hard for the devs to balance. The fact that I can cut damage to shields by 60% is pretty huge. But what makes it get really ugly is how those abilities stack. When I've got 2 STs on a target, during the overla0p time, 84% reduction. With that reduction, it takes over 45k worth of damage to get past 7.5k worth of shield. So, all it takes is for everyone else in the team to have 1 ST. Or maybe Extend Shields.

How the shield resist abilities stack will get nerfed at some point, probably to a system more like hull resists, with DR built in. That will still make one application quite effective, but reduce the impact of stacking them.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 6
03-31-2010, 02:42 AM
Asterix since when is having a tank-class in a MMO a bad thing?

And also consider that this game has no tanking/agression-skills, so the all-in-survivability-tank will do crap damage and therefore not have the pleasure of drawing the fire on himself, except maybe from the minions around the boss he was able to catch by flying in first. Plus currently all the end-bosses have ways to bypass shields to a certain extend.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 7
03-31-2010, 04:21 AM
Uhm, is this another "nerf sci" thread, or are there really some overpowered sci abilties which people stack on regular basis ?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 8
04-01-2010, 04:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roter_Panda
Asterix since when is having a tank-class in a MMO a bad thing?

And also consider that this game has no tanking/agression-skills, so the all-in-survivability-tank will do crap damage and therefore not have the pleasure of drawing the fire on himself, except maybe from the minions around the boss he was able to catch by flying in first.
K, guess I'll have to explain it again. This time I'll type slower and louder

It isn't a tanking class thing. It has nothing to do with tanking classes, although it does remove the need to have a tank, so that sort of nullifies the first bit.

What it is is a buff class thing.

The devs want to make content with a certain level of difficulty. That means they need to be able to anticipate roughly how much damage we can soak, how long it'll take us to kill the mob, and so on. And this being the casual game that it is, they want us to have a certain degree of freedom.

And that is where the problem lies.

The difference in how much damage the players takes varies drastically when you combine several of these buffs, due to how science skills scale and how shield damage reduction buffs work.

Because of that, the devs cannot balance risk versus reward and maintain the casual flexibility that they want.

If I can dive into my EQ experience, EQ was never intended to have raids. The toughest content in the game at launch was a pair of dragons, both of which were intended to be single group encounters. The problem? People brought two groups. So they made them tougher. And people brought even more. So the devs had to make them tougher still, balanced them against about 30 people, 5 groups worth, because that's about the limit the game could support before lag caused diminishing returns. And that, by the way, is why MMOs have raids, because players tried to make the hardest content in the game easy.

The devs want a certain level of difficulty. The players want things as easy as possible, follow the path of least resistance. Therefore, if stacking 2 people set up to stack shield buffs can gimp something, players will do that (hence why you often see "required" classes in other MMOs to do certain things). And if the devs don't want that something gimped, either they have to balance it so that you have to stack those buffs, it bypasses shields, or the buffs in question get nerfed, probably in some way that adds diminishing returns.

Quote:
Plus currently all the end-bosses have ways to bypass shields to a certain extend.
Precisely the point and exactly part of why it will eventually change. To make the game balanced, the devs would have to have any future end game bosses be able to nullify shields to some degree. It limits the devs options. Sooner or later, the devs will want shields to play part in one of those encounters. Most likely, the only reason it doesn't for the Borg is because the lore has them draining shields, not because they actually thought about the impact of shield buff stacking.

Now, you can say it isn't necessary. And so on.

But I can tell you this. It is going to happen. it is inevitable. The devs are going to eventually want shields to be part of a high end encounter. And when they do, they won't like what shield damage reduction buff stacking does. And they'll change it. Probably to work something more like hull resists, in terms of how it has DR and how it stacks.

And, for that matter, checked out how much new science consoles give versus the old ones? Half the skill. As I said, something was going to be changed. It was inevitable. Don't particularly like that change, but the fact that something about it was going to change, well, called that in my first post in this thread.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 9
03-06-2010, 03:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azurian View Post
In the past week, from both the Federation and Klingon perspectives, I'm running more and more into Federation Science Ships using Engineering and Science Skill stacking to effectively make their ships invulernable. Enough they can literally tank 3 or 4 cruisers without even losing 50% of their shields.

Some of them even use the Rogue Federation Bug in the Borg Hunt to go griefing (killing fellow federation from completing the mission goals).

So let me ask you this, this overpowered or necessary?
"Invulnerable" is clearly an exaggeration. The game is flooded with escorts and cruisers, therefore it's good if things are changing a bit. Sure, sci-vessels have good tanking abilities but that does not mean that they can kill escorts with ease. They need teamwork together with other ship types if their team wants to win.

Instead of demanding a nerf you could also fly a sci-vessel to help your team escorts. What do you expect? That escorts dominate the whole gameplay and other ship types are only fluff?

Very good to see the escort roxxors get a damp now
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 10
03-06-2010, 04:21 AM
The price for being able to tank up to three ships for extended time in PvP is that you have almost no offensive abilities, meaning such an ship wount do much damage to the three guys shooting at it.

The ships you call invulnerable are most certainly healer builds like mine, with alot of shield and hull repair skills and probably an Engineer Captain for additional defensive cooldowns.

Your best bet to deal with a ship like this is to focus fire on it, so that it has to blow its defensive cooldowns on itself to survive. Once this is done switch to another target like maybe an Escort, the healer Ship will then probably use extend shields on the Escort to save it, since this should be the only skill not on cooldown at this moment exept transfer shield strenght, which isnt powerful enough to withstand such an assault. At this point all cooldowns should be blown up by now, meaning if you switch to another target it cant get any support for quite some time.

I think it is a good thing Healer Ships are hard to kill, since if it was not the case, they would always be the first to die in focus fire, leaving them unable to fulfil their role.
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