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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE TRY TO BE CIVILIZED AND KEEP FLAMING AND TROLLING TO A MINIMUM

8 times out of 10 the klingons win due to superior DPS coupled with pretty much the exact same defenses as federation.

no, this is not a "l2p" issue.

been talking alot with a mate that plays in a klingon set group and we are pretty much agreeing on this.


Klingons DPS is currently overpowered, the vast majority (if not all) their ships can and will mount cannons, load up with stacked rapid fire plus attack pattern beta = megapwn.

feds have 1 ship class that can do this, the rest are stuck with either dual beams, beam arrays or *cough* turrets.

dual beams works somewhat on the science ships, wich would have to dual spec cannons for the turrets, making them alot less effective then they should be. but are a complete waste on a cruiser due to its horrible turning so that leavs them with either said turrets or beam arrays.

a klingon with stacked RF can get up to 3000 DPS for what, 15 seconds:ish?

a fed with......... wait, feds doesent have any proper beam DPS skills (dont say overload is a proper DPS skill fgs, and dont even think about fire at will). ok lets use emergency power to weapons insted, that bumps up the beam arrays to somewhere around 800 - 850 DPS give or take.

now the supposed reasoning for klingons ability to use cannons on all their ships were the supposed defense penalty they get, but thats really only noticable in t1 and t2, in t3 and up its more then possible to be pretty much immune to damage to the shields for over a minute if you play it well, probably alot longer if your really good.

so all in all it doesent matter how effective a federation fleet is in pvp. if faced against a equally effective klingon fleet, just the fact that it wont have nearly the same DPS OR agility as a klingon fleet means they will lose.

klingons have, element of surprise, manouverability and DPS on their side. feds WERE supposed to have superior defenses to balance this but right now i cant see that.

so what could be done to balance this out?

give science ships the ability to use proper cannons (obviously cruisers are out of the question)? njeee, i dunno, it would just make klingons less unique.

gimp klingons defenses some more? that probably wouldn't be a good idea at all.

limmit the ability to mount cannons to BoP's only? it sure has potential but again it would just make klingons less unique and more a "alternate federation".

give beams some proper DPS skills? maybe, hard to do that with arrays having such huge arcs. maybe something thats limmited to dual beams only?

kill off the ability to stack different tiers of the same power (such as rapid fire)? now i like that idea more then anything, stacked rapid fire (or any skill different tiers) is whats breaking the balance in pvp more then anything so imo that needs to go.

its gone to the point where almost all the good klingon set groups play KvK only because theres just no challenge to play FvK anymore so something needs to be done if we want to have a healthy pvp community outside of KvK.

so what would your REASONABLE suggestions be to have the fleets be more balanced? try to also keep it with set group versus set group in mind, PUGS are utterly impossible to balance the game around and 1v1's arent meant to be in this game.


and again, PLEASE try to keep this thread as civil as possible. lets try to give Cryptic as little flaming/trolling as possible to wade through for once
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2
03-06-2010, 10:13 PM
Devs recently posted info about the 45 day patch and cannons are getting what looks like a pretty big nerf. They'll drain far more power than they currently do, which suggests to me that they'll be best used for burst fire rather than a continuous barrage, and Rapid Fire won't be as good as it currently is, especially for smaller cannons. (Although cannons won't interrupt each other anymore either, which means the initial burst may be bigger than now.)


I hope some "decent" players are going to plan on copying characters to the test server so we can try this stuff out.



Incidentally, I don't understand why more Feds don't use the Target Subsystem skills. They last for a good while, they reduce MAX power rather than acting as a drain (which means you cannot counter them with EPS consoles, like you can Tyken's Rift) and different ranks of the same power stack (e.g., Target Subsystem Weapons II stacks with III).

I also almost never see Feds using Aceton Field, which is quite effective for lowering DPS.


So I do still think there's a big "L2P" component here -- all the stuff you guys don't find useful in PvE because NPCs are stupid and weak is actually a big deal in PvP and you'd do well to think outside the PvE box on your skill selections. For example, I have seen Feds that stack Target Subsystem Shields so that your shields will simply turn off if you have them at less than about 60 power but that's rare. Doing it to engines or weapons would be good too, as would aux (0 aux = no science abilities and no turning).
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 3
03-06-2010, 10:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slamz
So I do still think there's a big "L2P" component here -- all the stuff you guys don't find useful in PvE because NPCs are stupid and weak is actually a big deal in PvP and you'd do well to think outside the PvE box on your skill selections. For example, I have seen Feds that stack Target Subsystem Shields so that your shields will simply turn off if you have them at less than about 60 power but that's rare. Doing it to engines or weapons would be good too, as would aux (0 aux = no science abilities and no turning).
It's easier just to demand nerfs than to take a few minutes to try and understand that people who play 100% of their levels in PvP are going to have an "exp factor" advantage. Taking a few minutes to sit back, see what those people are doing and come up with a counter isn't hard. Sadly like I said, "thinking of a counter" takes effort, but demanding the devs to fix what they don't understand, does not.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 4
03-06-2010, 10:34 PM
We should have some feds just post up their builds so we can critique them (in the PvP forum, not here).

Better yet, post a screenshot of themselves in combat. I noticed that the Gamespot PvP screenshot, the guy had default controls and default energy levels -- he was running with 50 weapon power setting, which is crap.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 5
03-06-2010, 11:46 PM
Since Klinks only have PvP as an option to level we have a vastly larger amount of exp with it.

Quite frankly gear wise Feds have it all over us , but experience and time spent in PvP we have the advantage.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 6
03-07-2010, 03:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azreell View Post
Since Klinks only have PvP as an option to level we have a vastly larger amount of exp with it.

Quite frankly gear wise Feds have it all over us , but experience and time spent in PvP we have the advantage.
This is absolutely true, but as the OP explained, the Klingons ALSO have a big advantage in terms of superior ships.

Rather than nerfing Klingon defense even more, I think a buff to Federation defense to make it a more meaningful advantage would make more sense. Hell, everyone knows a simple linear increase in hitpoints will still easily be overcome with high sustained DPS and/or focus fire - but say a 30-40% advantage in hull/shield points (rather than the current 10% or so) would go a long way to giving the Federation a faction-distinct advantage to match the Klingon one and make escorts a more viable choice in PvP.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 7
03-07-2010, 05:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slamz
We should have some feds just post up their builds so we can critique them (in the PvP forum, not here).

Better yet, post a screenshot of themselves in combat. I noticed that the Gamespot PvP screenshot, the guy had default controls and default energy levels -- he was running with 50 weapon power setting, which is crap.
LOL, those are the guys that I pray (or prey?) cross my sights. Can't do anything well with all evened out power settings
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 8
03-07-2010, 06:54 AM
First off Feds need to learn that cannons can be used by BOTH sides. Only for Feds it is limited to the escort class line of ships. So, if a Fed wants to use cannons he/she has to fly the escort line of ships. Now, do I think cannons need a "nerf" of sorts. No, cannons do not need a nerf. Cannons are fine the way they are, but do fix the timing issues with them.

I am extremely disappointed with Cryptic after reading they are "normalizing" (which is code for they are doing what the feds want and nerfing them). If this keeps up and this game turns into a listen to the QQers and whiners like in SWG I dont think I want to stomach another one of those.

Now on to the problem with feds thinking cannons need a nerf. Cannons are meant to be a largly klink side gun given that we do not have the defenses the feds have, plain and simple. What this means is we have to have a higher damage output than a fed. One thing you do not see very much of is klinks whining about nerf beam overload or nerf the feds use of cannons. But, we see alot of feds QQing and whining about nerf klinks, and if this nerf to cannons goes through, and possibly a cloak nerf I have been hearing rumors of goes through as well, klinks will not be a very playable class in any sense of the thought let alone word.

Stop "adjusting" and nerfing the combat system people, it just screws up and screws over people who actually use it.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 9
03-07-2010, 12:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slamz
We should have some feds just post up their builds so we can critique them (in the PvP forum, not here).

Better yet, post a screenshot of themselves in combat. I noticed that the Gamespot PvP screenshot, the guy had default controls and default energy levels -- he was running with 50 weapon power setting, which is crap.

What are you stupid. Why are you giving vital information out to federation players? I don't appreciate a fellow KDF coaching the FEDERATION on skills to take and tactics to use against us.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 10
03-07-2010, 09:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philroe View Post
What are you stupid. Why are you giving vital information out to federation players? I don't appreciate a fellow KDF coaching the FEDERATION on skills to take and tactics to use against us.
Beating on people because they lack the skills and knowledge you have is only amusing for so long...

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