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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/featur...el_of_mmo_.php

Basically, the article talks about EVE Online, CCP, and the "Icelandic model" of MMO development. It talks about how important it is for MMOs that don't have a massive budget (looks at STO) to concentrate on developing really strong "sand box" game play, so that players always feel like they have some thing to do, even when that structure is not handed to them directly.

I encourage every one to read the full article, because it will give you a better understanding of why it is so vitally important that Cryptic develops SYSTEMS like exploration in favor of creating more CONTENT like STFs, if they want STO to succeed on its very limited budget (compared to the AAA titles like WOW or TOR which can afford to spend a million dollars for a few hours of content, if necessary).
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2
05-20-2010, 09:03 AM
Sand box approach? Is that what Eve calls spending a real-time weeks mining asteroids or camping spawn spots waiting for others to exit systems?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 3
05-20-2010, 09:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cosmic_One View Post
Sand box approach? Is that what Eve calls spending a real-time weeks mining asteroids or camping spawn spots waiting for others to exit systems?
Hey be nice. ( even if it's true. )
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 4
05-20-2010, 09:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cosmic_One View Post
Sand box approach? Is that what Eve calls spending a real-time weeks mining asteroids or camping spawn spots waiting for others to exit systems?
Sand box means that the game *IS* the content. You don't kill 10 rats because some one sent you to kill 10 rats. If you kill rats, it's because killing rats is inherently fun or useful. Mining or camping spawn spots or whatever derisive phrase you want to use, are obviously executed well enough that players enjoy those activities for the sake of those activities, since they don't necessarily lead to some other content.

Which is the point. New content is expensive. It's hard to create enough content to keep people busy, unless you have a huge budget (like WoW or TOR). If you're relying on fresh content to keep people busy and you can't afford to create enough fresh content, then you've got a big problem.

If instead you're relying on the game itself to act as the content, then it just comes down to whether or not the game is compelling enough and high enough in quality. Good games are fun to play because they're good games, not just because there's another grind to tackle. Cryptic should focus more on making STO a sand box that's fun to play in, by making exploration a truly immersive experience, by making star ship combat dynamic and interesting (actually it already is, but they may be making it less so), making ground combat more engrossing, and so on.

Extra content like hand crafted missions and such are good and fun and have their place, but they cannot be the core of the game experience if STO is meant to last.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 5
05-20-2010, 09:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iconical
Sand box means that the game *IS* the content. You don't kill 10 rats because some one sent you to kill 10 rats. If you kill rats, it's because killing rats is inherently fun or useful. Mining or camping spawn spots or whatever derisive phrase you want to use, are obviously executed well enough that players enjoy those activities for the sake of those activities, since they don't necessarily lead to some other content.

Which is the point. New content is expensive. It's hard to create enough content to keep people busy, unless you have a huge budget (like WoW or TOR). If you're relying on fresh content to keep people busy and you can't afford to create enough fresh content, then you've got a big problem.

If instead you're relying on the game itself to act as the content, then it just comes down to whether or not the game is compelling enough and high enough in quality. Good games are fun to play because they're good games, not just because there's another grind to tackle. Cryptic should focus more on making STO a sand box that's fun to play in, by making exploration a truly immersive experience, by making star ship combat dynamic and interesting (actually it already is, but they may be making it less so), making ground combat more engrossing, and so on.

Extra content like hand crafted missions and such are good and fun and have their place, but they cannot be the core of the game experience if STO is meant to last.

This is the first post of this type I agree with. Is this why so many are clammoring for mini games?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 6
05-20-2010, 09:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iconical
Sand box means that the game *IS* the content. You don't kill 10 rats because some one sent you to kill 10 rats. If you kill rats, it's because killing rats is inherently fun or useful. Mining or camping spawn spots or whatever derisive phrase you want to use, are obviously executed well enough that players enjoy those activities for the sake of those activities, since they don't necessarily lead to some other content.

Which is the point. New content is expensive. It's hard to create enough content to keep people busy, unless you have a huge budget (like WoW or TOR). If you're relying on fresh content to keep people busy and you can't afford to create enough fresh content, then you've got a big problem.

If instead you're relying on the game itself to act as the content, then it just comes down to whether or not the game is compelling enough and high enough in quality. Good games are fun to play because they're good games, not just because there's another grind to tackle. Cryptic should focus more on making STO a sand box that's fun to play in, by making exploration a truly immersive experience, by making star ship combat dynamic and interesting (actually it already is, but they may be making it less so), making ground combat more engrossing, and so on.

Extra content like hand crafted missions and such are good and fun and have their place, but they cannot be the core of the game experience if STO is meant to last.
I know what the concept is. I just don't care that much. If everyone believed that Eve's content concept was the best then Eve would be the largest MMO in the world rather then WoW. Eve attracts a certain mind-set of player and the Sandbox works fine for them but it doesn't work fine for the average MMO player. You see, fun is subjective. While you might enjoy killing 10 rats someone else will just consider it a grind, thus my comment about mining and spawn-camping in Eve. The people who like that type of thing migrate to that game. Those that don't, don't.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 7
05-20-2010, 09:33 AM
We all loved SWG but before SWG's NGE/CU, it was already dying and, yet, somehow based on one of the bestselling intellectual properties ever.

That's what happens to a sandbox sometimes.

What I'd do:
Build a huge sandbox
Start occupying spaces with jungle-gyms, monkey bars, etc.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 8
05-20-2010, 09:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darren_Kitlor
We all loved SWG but before SWG's NGE/CU, it was already dying and, yet, somehow based on one of the bestselling intellectual properties ever.
I never played it or wanted to play it, so I didn't 'love' it. Yet it is a good example of your point.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 9
05-20-2010, 09:37 AM
The game could definately use enhanced sandbox elements. The pieces are already there, just needs to make better use of them. I'd love to see them beef the heck out of the Exploration system, and do something incredible with the Diplomacy system. A crafting system that was actually worth time and effort is another good sandbox element.

But I wouldn't want to see the game become completely sandbox. There needs to be a balance. I found EVE (and to a lesser degree SWG) boring because they relied too much on their players and sandbox elements as a substitute for actual content.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 10
05-20-2010, 09:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darren_Kitlor
We all loved SWG but before SWG's NGE/CU, it was already dying and, yet, somehow based on one of the bestselling intellectual properties ever.
Actually I never cared for it pre or post NGE. It always came off as sloppy and poorly designed to me. I tried playing it a few different times at the urging of friends, but... meh...

I can understand what the OP is trying to say here, and to an extent I agree with it. However, if that means going purely the route that EVE has taken, NO THANK YOU. In my opinion, there are very few games out there that are more dull. I'll take STO (even in its current state) over EVE any day of the week. But, that's just my opinion
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