Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
There is a lot of discussion about players not knowing how to handle this situation or that ship. I do believe that most of the problems stems from a lack of educational material present in the game. Without this material the casual PvP will always want something or another nerf'd. Education is what is needed.

This is were hardcore PvPers comes in to play. We are the ones who have developed tactics that are effective. We have spent hours on end reviewing our game play, analyzing our opponents strategy (or lack there of), modifying our BOffs, and tweaking our loadouts. Collectively, we have the knowledge to make EVERYONE a better player. We use this knowledge purposefully against other hPvPer and innately in PuGs. Therein lies the problem ... only we have the knowledge.

So, I propose we develop a series of L2P threads. (L2P being constructive not derogatory.) The purpose is to provide access known effective strategies and tactics to the casual PvP player. If it is a situation where Feds need educating ... put it here: Federation Gameplay. If it is a situation where Klingons need educating ... put it here: Klingon Gameplay. Down the road, when other playable factions are added we can put those discussions in their associated Gameplay forum.

Okay, so the PROPOSED changes to Klingon carriers is getting EVERYONE in an uproar. Feds say this. Klingons say that. Blah, blah, blah. I'm going to stay out of that discussion AND ask that we not have that discussion here. However we can use it as our first installment of L2P articles.

To start, I have noted that a lot of that discussion centers around the carrier as an isolated unit and comparing it to this, that or the other ship, but I have seen no discussion regarding its inclusion as a part of a team. So, I ask those who play Fed and Klingon: How do you handle a carrier in PvP? How do you handle 2 ... 3? What tactic should you expect to see from a carrier captain? How do you deal with the pet population?

(Please be civil.)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2
01-24-2011, 11:48 AM
I think the reason for the changes are such: a single carrier is a nuisance, but not invincible, However, a group of carriers is a lag fest and causes great frustration in pvp.

I normally don't care about carriers, however this weekend I had the opportunity to be in a match vs 3 carries and 2 bops. The sheer amount of fighters alone i'm sure had to be near 50, I may be mistaken as I never had the opportunity to count. The point is that against that many npcs, in what is supposed to be pvp combat, most players get frustrated or simply overpowered. The problem isn't the carrier itself, but the usage of multiple carriers in a single match, to which there can never really be an ideal fix.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 3
01-24-2011, 11:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheKalamity View Post
I think the reason for the changes are such: a single carrier is a nuisance, but not invincible, However, a group of carriers is a lag fest and causes great frustration in pvp.

I normally don't care about carriers, however this weekend I had the opportunity to be in a match vs 3 carries and 2 bops. The sheer amount of fighters alone i'm sure had to be near 50, I may be mistaken as I never had the opportunity to count. The point is that against that many npcs, in what is supposed to be pvp combat, most players get frustrated or simply overpowered. The problem isn't the carrier itself, but the usage of multiple carriers in a single match, to which there can never really be an ideal fix.
The only reason I get overpowered is not so much the graphical lag but the ability to fire off BOff skills when I want in a NPC spam fest. I have to click a power 3-4 times to get them to fire and in this game timing is everything. For some reason when there are 20 plus deployables, plus mines, and photonics the GUI is very hard pressed on my end to keep up.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 4
01-24-2011, 11:56 AM
I'll just throw in this:

Pets > Carrier

Deal with the pets, and you'll have essentially declawed the carrier. Too many people make the mistake of going directly for the carrier, allowing it to build up and maintain its "cloud" of pets long enough for them to unleash their feared torpedo volleys. If you want to attack a carrier, take care of the pets first. Ideally, ignore the carrier and just deal with his pets, then focus on squishier ships. Carrier can be very hard to take down, especially if used with a survival build and escorted by good teamplayers. This is why they are often described as being able to "anchor" a battle, even if the carrier in itself is nothing without its pets.

Ideally, you'll have one player focusing on "neutralizing" the carrier's tactical value by engaging its pets whilst the rest of the team goes for a proper target. Naturally, Escorts with Cannon Spread are very useful for this, but I've heard good things about cruisers with Beam FaW as well. I am currently leveling a Fed Tactical to specialize in anti-fighter duty, as the ongoing complaints have made me want to try it myself.
This, of course, boils down to teamplay. I often read comments from Fed Cruiser captains complaining that Escorts should do their damn job and escort them, so take this as anouther encouragement that it is quite possible to deal with a carrier-reinforced battlegroup if you just work together as a team.

Another mistake I see regularly (though nowadays not as often as months ago) is that the popular Fedball dislikes maneuvering. A carrier is able to launch its pets from a distance of 15km. If you don't move in and attack, the carrier will continue to build up a swarm of fighters and/or BoP's until it becomes hard to deal with. So don't just wait until you get attacked, instead turn the tide and engage before the enemy has finished preparing for the battle.

Other than that, let me finish by providing a link to a (in my opinion) rather helpful post from a carrier pilot concerning advantages and weaknesses of a carrier and what they mean for you:
http://forums.startrekonline.com/sho...1&postcount=23
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 5
01-24-2011, 12:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valias
I'll just throw in this:

Pets > Carrier

Deal with the pets, and you'll have essentially declawed the carrier. Too many people make the mistake of going directly for the carrier, allowing it to build up and maintain its "cloud" of pets long enough for them to unleash their feared torpedo volleys. If you want to attack a carrier, take care of the pets first. Ideally, ignore the carrier and just deal with his pets, then focus on squishier ships. Carrier can be very hard to take down, especially if used with a survival build and escorted by good teamplayers. This is why they are often described as being able to "anchor" a battle, even if the carrier in itself is nothing without its pets.

Ideally, you'll have one player focusing on "neutralizing" the carrier's tactical value by engaging its pets whilst the rest of the team goes for a proper target. Naturally, Escorts with Cannon Spread are very useful for this, but I've heard good things about cruisers with Beam FaW as well. I am currently leveling a Fed Tactical to specialize in anti-fighter duty, as the ongoing complaints have made me want to try it myself.
This, of course, boils down to teamplay. I often read comments from Fed Cruiser captains complaining that Escorts should do their damn job and escort them, so take this as anouther encouragement that it is quite possible to deal with a carrier-reinforced battlegroup if you just work together as a team.

Another mistake I see regularly (though nowadays not as often as months ago) is that the popular Fedball dislikes maneuvering. A carrier is able to launch its pets from a distance of 15km. If you don't move in and attack, the carrier will continue to build up a swarm of fighters and/or BoP's until it becomes hard to deal with. So don't just wait until you get attacked, instead turn the tide and engage before the enemy has finished preparing for the battle.

Other than that, let me finish by providing a link to a (in my opinion) rather helpful post from a carrier pilot concerning advantages and weaknesses of a carrier and what they mean for you:
http://forums.startrekonline.com/sho...1&postcount=23
That's common sense. I'd like to see you attempt to declaw 3 carriers while you have two bops alpha striking you, 3 carriers shooting you at range, and 50+ photons inbound to your shieldless hull. I'm an experienced pvper and specifically keep copies of fire and will and gravity well to deal with mobs of spawns but there are times when you simply don't get the time or they're on cooldowns.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 6
01-24-2011, 01:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheKalamity View Post
That's common sense. I'd like to see you attempt to declaw 3 carriers while you have two bops alpha striking you, 3 carriers shooting you at range, and 50+ photons inbound to your shieldless hull.
In that case the questions would be: What are your other teammates doing? And why were the carriers allowed to generate 50+ fighters?

I understand what you mean, though, even if I have to say that I very rarely see 3 carriers in a single match.
Personally, I actually wouldn't have anything against some sort of "carrier cap", like, a maximum of 1-2 carriers per match just to get rid of these exceptions. This would also serve the idea of carriers being important flagships and not something you'd see every day.

But if all of the above really would be common sense, then I wouldn't see some of those mistakes being made again and again. Starfleet has gotten noticeably better over the past months, but at least for PuG's it still seems to be a fifty-fifty chance of teamplay being non-existent.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 7
01-24-2011, 03:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valias
In that case the questions would be: What are your other teammates doing? And why were the carriers allowed to generate 50+ fighters?

I understand what you mean, though, even if I have to say that I very rarely see 3 carriers in a single match.
Personally, I actually wouldn't have anything against some sort of "carrier cap", like, a maximum of 1-2 carriers per match just to get rid of these exceptions. This would also serve the idea of carriers being important flagships and not something you'd see every day.

But if all of the above really would be common sense, then I wouldn't see some of those mistakes being made again and again. Starfleet has gotten noticeably better over the past months, but at least for PuG's it still seems to be a fifty-fifty chance of teamplay being non-existent.
Tbh, i'm fairly certain that I made it into the match after the start of it. That said, when 3 carriers are balled up and healing each other while spewing mobs, most tactics are thrown out the window. Even using my CC abilities i'd be surprised if I put much of a dent in the swarm.

But you are correct, it is rare to see 3 vo'quv's in an arena match. I'm merely saying that multiple carriers in a map are more than likely the source of the upcoming nerfs. Which may very well be overkill. I'm happy that they're simply reducing the spawn sizes, the carrier itself could have been left alone.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 8
01-24-2011, 04:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheKalamity View Post
Tbh, i'm fairly certain that I made it into the match after the start of it. That said, when 3 carriers are balled up and healing each other while spewing mobs, most tactics are thrown out the window. Even using my CC abilities i'd be surprised if I put much of a dent in the swarm.
Well, they cannot really heal the swarm, only themselves - and 3 carriers means few "normal" ships to do "normal" damage.

From what it sounds like, your teammates already allowed the situation to get out of control prior to your arrival, so the most difficult thing would have been to knock back the swarm to a level where you would be able to switch from defense to offense. Gravity Well and Tyken's Rift are excellent skills to take care of whole clouds of pets, and you can finish off the rest with a few B:FaW or RF Cannon salvos (easier said than done, but you get the idea). I've also heard that Viral Matrix does nasty stuff to carriers, but have not personally seen that in action yet (or likely just missed it as I was "occupied" with other targets).

Of course it's always easier to do a tactical post-battle analysis than having to decide whilst actually being there in the heat of the fight... I'm still making many mistakes just because I got distracted or even panic due to several enemy ships suddenly focus-firing my squishy Escort.

Also, it cannot be denied that anti-carrier tactics take a certain set of powers that may not be as useful when dealing with capital (read: player) ships. When fighting a carrier, however, they're golden - and I intend my Fed Tactical to fully concentrate on such a support role.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheKalamity View Post
I'm merely saying that multiple carriers in a map are more than likely the source of the upcoming nerfs. Which may very well be overkill. I'm happy that they're simply reducing the spawn sizes, the carrier itself could have been left alone.
I'm a bit saddened by the spawn size reduction, more due to style than efficiency. What use is a carrier when you can't churn out swarms of fighters? I'd have rather let them nerf the pets themselves - but then you'd probably have the issue that Feds would ignore them and focus on the carrier, which caused the devs to buff pets in the first place. It's a tricky circle.

Either way, it is also a bad sign that the devs give in to the whining (I realize this thread isn't like this, but many many others were) when they have previously stated it's balanced and people should adjust their tactics. It may well be that this was caused by the multiple carriers on a single map as you said, but in that case I would have rather preferred a join limit for them. This way, when there is just one carrier, isn't it underpowered now if it was previously balanced?
We'll have to wait and see, I guess.

That said, I also think part of the issue is targeting. Lots of players complain about not being able to select what they want to fire on, and I can even see this on K-side when two Feds are spawning Photonic Fleets and my screen suddenly fills with capital ships (though this kind of irritation may be intended - but in that case the holograms shouldn't do damage ).

I kind of wish they'd include a targeting priority selection, like:
- default targeting, no prioritization
- only target players (if no player is within 15km, target nearest NPC) <- lots of players seem to wish for this
- only target NPCs (if no NPC is within 15km, target nearest player) <- useful for Escorts on anti-carrier duty
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 9
01-24-2011, 12:10 PM
Yes, definitely Pets>Carrier,

When I played Carrier, I couldn't get enough dps to kill anything without my pets.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 10
01-24-2011, 01:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tranceaddict View Post
There is a lot of discussion about players not knowing how to handle this situation or that ship. I do believe that most of the problems stems from a lack of educational material present in the game. Without this material the casual PvP will always want something or another nerf'd. Education is what is needed.

This is were hardcore PvPers comes in to play. We are the ones who have developed tactics that are effective. We have spent hours on end reviewing our game play, analyzing our opponents strategy (or lack there of), modifying our BOffs, and tweaking our loadouts. Collectively, we have the knowledge to make EVERYONE a better player. We use this knowledge purposefully against other hPvPer and innately in PuGs. Therein lies the problem ... only we have the knowledge.

(Please be civil.)
While not a bad idea to start a thread on tactics i note that you have not actually offered any advice to those who read the thread hoping for some insight.
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