Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
Dont understand me wrong: The ships look good. BUT

I always loved in startrek the big ships with a few hundred people on board, with saucer section and two warp pods.

In the movies I liked most the sovereign class and the akira class even more. I never liked ships with three or four warp pods ( or what ever they are called in english, sorry)

The game starts with an Miranda that looks good. I customized it with parts of the two other classes and there was no problem.

Than i took the constellation but also liked the nova class.

Than I can have my favorite, the Akira. But this ship is weak and for me the game is over, I have everything I looked for .

May the outside is not important, but I always see the ship, some would say that I should be glad to even have a choice, and yes I am.

But thats me. I like to choose a ship I like and so I jump from cruiser to eskort, to science maybe. I would play a doctor and maybe help other ships in battle in space.


But the science ships will all have three warp pods in the end, thats unacceptable for me.
The escorts become too much fighterstyle. I know the defiant looks nice and is big too but for me it always looked and behave like a small fighter and not like a big ship. The biggest eskort in the end are also too much racecar.
And last but not least, the cruisers have four warp pods after sovereign.
But at the end I will return to the cruisers.

In the movies, the ships became a more fragile style, which I liked. In the game they become more heavy and ponderous.

I know the reason why I cannot choose between different numbers of warp pods have some technic causes.

I never liked the Neg'Vah, in the game all Klingeon ships (except the Neg'Vah of course) look great. I always loved the Bird of Prey design, and the heavy ones are awesome.

greetings
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2
02-02-2011, 03:59 PM
Conversely, I love the four nacelle designs because they look so unusual. I wish I could make my ship look "thrown together", because my Captain is a rogue and a tinkerer, but I settled for making the nacelles on the Heavy Cruiser different lengths.

There are plenty of ships with the traditional saucer and cylinders arrangement, though, the Constitution Class, of course, and its two variants; the Galaxy, of course; the Sovereign, the Excelsior, the Nebula, the Luna, the Miranda, and even the Akira has a saucer variant.

Then there is the arrowhead and flat body model started with the Voyager. There is the little Nova, of course, the Intrepid, the Oslo Heavy Escort variant, the Prometheous, the Avenger, and even the Oracle. (That third "warp nacelle", BTW, is if I am correct not a warp nacelle, but a "science pod", which is supposed to give the ship interchangable science capabilities. And I think it is optional...)

Finally, there is the Saber, which to me looks like a saucer design with the edges trimmed off to make it look aggressive, and warp pods stuck on, the no-frills arrowhead of the Defiant, and the Hermes, kind of the evolution of both. And in my opinion the ugliest of the Star Trek ships, the Olympic and its ball. But the Olympic is totally canon. (And interestingly enough, based on one of the early concept models of the Enterprise made during the creation of TOS)

In short, while you may not like the design of all the of the ships, there's no need to give up. There should be something you like waiting for you at every rank of the game. If nothing else, you can just go with the Excelsior refit at Vice Admiral. That's basically the Enterprise-B, from Generations, you can't get closer to the original without the devs making a Constitution refit.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 3
02-02-2011, 08:45 PM
I agree that there is a certain formula that Gene Rodenberry used which held true for the most part. I am all for more ships added to STO, but I would strongly suggest that the graphics artists stick to the traditional layout of a Saucer, two (or four nacelles), and an engineering hull. The Long Range Science Vessle is ok, but really should have had a clearly defined Saucer. The Star Cruiser was much more in line with the tradtional designs, but it could have a more rounded saucer. It was a good start and I encourage the design teams to contiune to bring us more ships.

Gene Rodenberry's "rules"
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/articles/design.htm

Good Articles about Starship designs
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/articles.htm
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 4
02-03-2011, 10:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NeilCell View Post
I am all for more ships added to STO, but I would strongly suggest that the graphics artists stick to the traditional layout of a Saucer, two (or four nacelles), and an engineering hull. The Long Range Science Vessle is ok, but really should have had a clearly defined Saucer. The Star Cruiser was much more in line with the tradtional designs, but it could have a more rounded saucer. It was a good start and I encourage the design teams to contiune to bring us more ships.
Well, as I said above, the Long Range Science Vessel DOES fit the design of Federation starships if you include the design of the Voyager in the consideration. Voyager wasn't Roddenberry's design, but it DOES fit the configuration of the two nacelles, engineering hull, and a main body, only that main body is now an arrowhead and not a saucer.

Second, there are many ship designs, totally canon in the Star Trek universe, that do NOT have an engineering hull. The Miranda, Sabre, Akira, Nebula, and even the original NX Enterprise have just a saucer and two warp nacelles with NO engineering hull, and these are all canon ships from the movies, TNG, and DS9, which Rodenberry was involved in. And the Olympic, with its sphere in place of a saucer, was based on an early design for the TOS Enterprise, and appeared in TNG and DS9.

The Prometheus appeared in Voyager, as well, so only the Oracle (the LRSV) the Luna (designed by fans for a ST novel series) the Hermes, the Vanguard and the various reskins of the base ship types are completely invented by STO. To my mind, I don't think they've done a bad job of capturing the look of Star Trek ships in general. Even the Stargazer, with its four nacelles (although they were in a different configuration, positioned close together above and below the ship) and the Galaxy refit with its three nacelles were feature in actual Star Trek episodes. If those designs with multiple nacelles are invalid, then they are invalid in canon ST episodes.

BTW, I think that I should point out an explanation I have heard as to why the Enterprise is such a beautiful, as well as relevent and long lasting design, which has successfully been expanded on and updated without losing its beauty. You essentially have a combination between the feminine, in the form of the main saucer hull, with the masculine, in its nacelles and engineering section. Thus, the ship conveys both strength and power, and yet also a sense of comfort and safety. It is a "home" for the characters, and so we identify with it.

You also have a sense of stability in the triangle formed by the warp nacelles and the engineering hull, which in many of the science ships is reversed, to put the warp nacelles below, and the "science pod" above. The article you linked to also points out an important factor, which is that the warp nacelles are ALWAYS visible, from any angle on the ship. (For the Voyager, this is accomplished by actually moving them before going to warp) The article implies there is a technological reason for this, but asthetically it enforces the "tripod" structure and ensures the power source of the ship is obvious to the viewer.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 5
02-06-2011, 09:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blayyde
Well, as I said above, the Long Range Science Vessel DOES fit the design of Federation starships if you include the design of the Voyager in the consideration. Voyager wasn't Roddenberry's design, but it DOES fit the configuration of the two nacelles, engineering hull, and a main body, only that main body is now an arrowhead and not a saucer.

Second, there are many ship designs, totally canon in the Star Trek universe, that do NOT have an engineering hull. The Miranda, Sabre, Akira, Nebula, and even the original NX Enterprise have just a saucer and two warp nacelles with NO engineering hull, and these are all canon ships from the movies, TNG, and DS9, which Rodenberry was involved in. And the Olympic, with its sphere in place of a saucer, was based on an early design for the TOS Enterprise, and appeared in TNG and DS9.

The Prometheus appeared in Voyager, as well, so only the Oracle (the LRSV) the Luna (designed by fans for a ST novel series) the Hermes, the Vanguard and the various reskins of the base ship types are completely invented by STO. To my mind, I don't think they've done a bad job of capturing the look of Star Trek ships in general. Even the Stargazer, with its four nacelles (although they were in a different configuration, positioned close together above and below the ship) and the Galaxy refit with its three nacelles were feature in actual Star Trek episodes. If those designs with multiple nacelles are invalid, then they are invalid in canon ST episodes.

BTW, I think that I should point out an explanation I have heard as to why the Enterprise is such a beautiful, as well as relevent and long lasting design, which has successfully been expanded on and updated without losing its beauty. You essentially have a combination between the feminine, in the form of the main saucer hull, with the masculine, in its nacelles and engineering section. Thus, the ship conveys both strength and power, and yet also a sense of comfort and safety. It is a "home" for the characters, and so we identify with it.

You also have a sense of stability in the triangle formed by the warp nacelles and the engineering hull, which in many of the science ships is reversed, to put the warp nacelles below, and the "science pod" above. The article you linked to also points out an important factor, which is that the warp nacelles are ALWAYS visible, from any angle on the ship. (For the Voyager, this is accomplished by actually moving them before going to warp) The article implies there is a technological reason for this, but asthetically it enforces the "tripod" structure and ensures the power source of the ship is obvious to the viewer.
I will have to refute some of your points, please don't take it personally.

Voyager did have a saucer. True it was more triangular, but it was both longer and wider than it was deep. The Long Range Science Vessle is deeper than it is wide, as such it looses the clearly defined saucer section.

Yes, the Nebula and the Miranda were created for projects that Gene Rodenberry was involved with. There is debate as to whether the Miranda's roll bar was for weapons or the engineering section (I think it was both). The Nebula does indeed have an engineering section which is the same as the Galaxy. In fact, the Nebula really does have the same mass and volume, it is just more compact and has a smaller surface area compared to the Galaxy, but I digress. The Saber, Akira, Norway, Steamrunner and NX were created after Rodenberry's death. They do have engineering sections. The pyloins and pods consitute the engineering section. Both the Daeleus and Olypmic do indeed also have engineering sections as well.

As for the three nacelles, that is clearly against what Rodenberry advised. He said that the warp engines always worked in pairs. The Freedom and Niagra classes in "The Best of Both Worlds" ship grave yard violate this, and Michael Okuda even reminded his coworker about that, but those ships were included as it was agreed that the details would be very difficult to make out with the recording technology of the time. The only explination I can give for the thrid nacelle on the Galaxy Advanced Dreadnaught is that if the ship looses one nacelle, there is a backup one that could help, though the warp field would be very unstable because of absolute asymmitry.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 6
02-06-2011, 09:58 PM
I believe they justified the 3 nacelles by saying that each nacelle contains a pair of warp coils. That is splitting it really fine, however.

I had always called them Primary Hull (Saucer in STO) and Secondary Hull. I'm not sure where I picked up that nomenclature, but it seems to be a bit more generic.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 7
02-07-2011, 04:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NeilCell View Post
I will have to refute some of your points, please don't take it personally.

Voyager did have a saucer. True it was more triangular, but it was both longer and wider than it was deep. The Long Range Science Vessle is deeper than it is wide, as such it looses the clearly defined saucer section.
I am assuming you mean the Deep Space Science Vessel, since the Voyager/Inrepid is a Long Range Science Vessel.

---

I also heard or read the termsPrimary and Secondary Hull for saucer and engineering section. Either works for me.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 8
02-08-2011, 04:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NeilCell View Post
I will have to refute some of your points, please don't take it personally.
I do not, please do not take my refutaton of your refutation personally.

Quote:
Voyager did have a saucer. True it was more triangular, but it was both longer and wider than it was deep. The Long Range Science Vessle is deeper than it is wide, as such it looses the clearly defined saucer section.
Um... a saucer is round, that is why it is called a saucer. Because it resembles a saucer. An arrowhead, no matter how flat or wide it may be, does not resemble a saucer.

The Voyager represented a considerable jump in Star Trek ship design, because while it had a primary and secondary hull, and paired nacelles, like the Enterprise, it was the first to replace the saucer with a more pointed, aggressive design. By contrast, the flow of the ship itself became more curved and aerodynamic, taking on a shape derived from the way the Galaxy-class Enterprise had been curved.

Quote:
There is debate as to whether the Miranda's roll bar was for weapons or the engineering section (I think it was both). The Nebula does indeed have an engineering section which is the same as the Galaxy. In fact, the Nebula really does have the same mass and volume, it is just more compact and has a smaller surface area compared to the Galaxy, but I digress. The Saber, Akira, Norway, Steamrunner and NX were created after Rodenberry's death. They do have engineering sections. The pyloins and pods consitute the engineering section. Both the Daeleus and Olypmic do indeed also have engineering sections as well.
By "engineering hull", I was talking about the third body that descends down from the main body of the primary hull. I am not saying anything about some portion of the hull which is sectioned off for engineering purposes, and I don't think that's even relevant. I am talking about the asthetic sense of the original TOS Enterprise, which balances the upper warp nacelles with the engineering hull underneath. The Galaxy, Sovreign, and Excelsior class Enterprises all had such a secondary hull, just like their predecessor, as does the Voyager. The NX Enterprise, Miranda and Akira have only a primary hull with nacelles attached directly to it.

The Nebula does have a secondary hull, but it is tucked under the saucer and the engines descend down beside it instead of up from it, and the "pod" on top of the hull extends from it as well. So it is not as prominent a part of the design as it is on the vessels that carry the Enterprise name. Its appearance is quite more clearly descended from the Miranda and it's "roll bar", which is itself a derivation of the Motion Picture version of the Enterprise, with its nacelles removed and placed under the saucer hull.

Quote:
As for the three nacelles, that is clearly against what Rodenberry advised.
The Galaxy Dreadnaught is the ONLY place three nacelles appears in the canon. And I like the explanation given that the Galaxy class warp pods (meaning those on the Nebula as well) have two warp cores, making them effectively two warp nacelles stuck together. So the assertion that warp nacelles be in pairs is not broken, there are three pairs, and they are in clear view of each other. You're probably right about the warp envelope being irregular, but likely the idea was to increase reduncancy, and allow warp flight if one pod was destroyed. The other two (or one, on the Galaxy) could be shut down and one pod used to achieve warp.

This explanation has been applied to the one nacelle designs in "Best of Both Worlds", but I consider it just as likely that as wreckage the ships simply lost their second nacelle. We can't be sure of the configuration of a wrecked ship. So really, we've only seen one ship with an odd number of nacelles actually in operation in the canon, and that was a future ship that might be operating using technology that simply wasn't available for most of the series.

That leaves four warp nacelles, which does not in any way invalidate Roddenberry's criteria that "warp nacelles come in pairs". They DO come in pairs, a PAIR of pairs. This has appeared several times in canon, the closely placed, upper and lower nacelles of the Constellation class Stargazer, as well as the more widely spaced and balanced Cheyenne and Prometheus, both the ship classes found here in this game. Presumably, the Nebula can also replace its upper pod with a PAIR of nacelles, and so I suppose it is possible that the DSSV's lower pod could be replaced with a pair of nacelles as well, or even a unified paired nacelle pod, like on the Stargazer or the theoretical Galaxy pod.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 9
02-02-2011, 09:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wenexx View Post
But the science ships will all have three warp pods in the end, thats unacceptable for me.

There is only one ship in the game with three warp nacelles, that is the Galaxy-X (dreadnought). I believe you might be mistaking the mission pods on the top tier science vessels for engines. They are not and can even be removed from the ship all together if you want to.

And last but not least, the cruisers have four warp pods after sovereign.

Also not sure where you got this from, the only ship in the later tiers that has 4 nacelles is the Prometheus, that happens to be an escort. The only 4 nacelled cruiser is the tier 3 one (same tier as the akira).
So yea seems you might misunderstand the classes a little bit mate, You can get some beautiful ships with the right combinations for almost every ship type imo at least.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 10
02-04-2011, 01:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wenexx View Post
But the science ships will all have three warp pods in the end, thats unacceptable for me.
The escorts become too much fighterstyle. I know the defiant looks nice and is big too but for me it always looked and behave like a small fighter and not like a big ship. The biggest eskort in the end are also too much racecar.
And last but not least, the cruisers have four warp pods after sovereign.
But at the end I will return to the cruisers.
Maybe I am missunderstanding you, but actually cruisers are the least class of ships with any "wicked" nacelle numbers or designs:
Assault Cruiser - 2 Nacelles
Star Cruiser - 2 Nacelles
Exploration Retro - 2 Nacelles
Advanced Heavy Retro - 2 Nacelles
The only T5 cruiser which stands out would be the Galaxy-X Dreadnaught featuring three nacelles.
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