Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 1 Is "12th Fleet" right for you?
02-06-2011, 10:05 PM
This is not a rant . This listed below is from an officer known as Firix, within the 12th fleet as to the reasons of my departure.
They have bi-laws to follow, applications to fill out,there own forum and what seems to be a well organized fleet within the STO universe. When you first see this fleet you think wow . They must have a great fleet, if they are so well organized,right? Well, your answer would be wrong.

Like a side show with tricks. Its all smoke and mirrors. Lies and trickery. Hidden sub forums, divisions,squads, segregation's, secret admiral forums and hit lists of who they don't like . And lets not forget about there secret police to follow you around in game and do extreme background checks on new people joining. There called S31..

The list is a long one of people that are blacklisted within the game and people who left the fleet without giving them a 3 day notice.The below is there reasons of my departure or BOOT ! And I will answer the charges to what they have written. They say there are a democracy type ran fleet or guild. Then Ok..I will have to say my piece here in a forum they cannot control to give a proper response to the reasons of the "Departure" or the boot from there fleet known as the 12th Fleet. In there forums , Teamspeak and in game, I had no way to answer to any such charges . Reason, I was banned or kicked out without a fair trial within in 10 minutes. I was a solo player again. All connections to them has been halted and cut off. At this point, I'm kinda glad I'm gone and continue my game play. This thread is in NO WAY meant to destroy the 12th or bring any shame to its leaders or the way they do things.It just to let the STO community know what really happens in a big fleet such as this..Once your in, its a different story. The smoke and mirrors are gone and the forums tend to ruin your game spirt to a degree. If your a hard core gamer,then this fleet is not for you. If you are a forum junkie,then this fleet is for you.

Again, this is not a rant ,but to show the community how a departure from a fleet or guild can get messy with politics of a game environment that people take too serious. When real life is less important then a forum,then you need to take another look at your self . Be careful when joining a fleet in this game or any other game that has rules a mile long and hoops to jump thru , just to play a game. Just because your some leader of a guild or some division leader,does don't mean you are better than anyone else. It means you should be the same as the person who just joined your guild or fleet. A fellow game player. Are we NOT here for the game? Or, are we so bored in life that a fourms outside STO is more important? Something to think about.

Originally Posted by Firix

Firix, Fleet Admiral 12th Fleet.

It is with sadness that I must report the removal of Katgato (wildmugato) from the fleet. The decision to remove him has taken several months of intense discussion, talking to him, trying to make the situation better for everyone, but in the end the decision was made that 12th Fleet did not fit him as a person.
Many months ago, soon after Kat was recruited into the fleet, he began causing a lot of drama in the Recruitment forum. He claims it was roleplaying but he would bash any division other than Maco (which he was in at that time).
This statement was and is FALSE. They have a section for new people to join. At the time I was in this MACO division. I wanted to recuit people to the division I was in. I started a campaign with slogens and pictures like a US ARMY recruitment. Some other Fleet leaders in other divisions grew jealous and felt, I was taking it too far and pulling new recruits from them. I was ask to stop and not write in that area anymore. OK..DONE. The next thing was some Tactical guys and some maco guys were doing a small bit of FLAME war. I asked that all that were maco to stop and cease actions. I was told at the time to please from now on to go thru your chain of command first before you do such a thing. The leaders of the division I was in were AFK . I took the initiative due to the rank I held at the time to try and put a stop to it.

Originally Posted by Firix
This escalated, dragging others in and forcing me and Nishka to have to edit and even sometimes to delete his and other's posts. Eventually I had words with him, saying that some of his posts were rude and offensive. He acknowledged this but still made these posts.
This is a little made up. The post were deleted. There was nothing rude or offensive about anything I said in any of my posts. I challenged them all to read all 430 posts(In 12th fourms) of mine for this accusations and nothing ever became of it.

Originally Posted by Firix
After another talk he finally stopped, but created a thread in the Maco forums, demanding that others stop too.
I did not demanded FALSE..I asked to cease and stop for reasons of potential flame war between the two divisions. I was looking out for the solical group I was in. They looked at it as I over stepped my boundary and did not use the chain of command of people who barely were there in the game as well a the forums during that time. I saw a problem and took care of it.Thats all.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2
02-06-2011, 10:06 PM
================================================== ==============================================
Originally Posted by Firix
I believe it was also around this time that Esray had to step away from the fleet for a while and so Ezme had a discussion with Kat that he shouldn't demand things of people, especially when he was causing most of it.
Kat then proceeded to bash Esray, saying that he was running away from it all. Ezme defended Esray, as he has and continues to do great things for this fleet. Due to his behavior, he was passed up for promotion, as he was not ready to lead.
"causing most of it". at the the time there was nothing about it. Bashing of another person as he says was NOT true either. I did not such a thing. I said was, If he was going to be AFK from the fleet to do things in real life of whatever reason ,then maybe he needs to step down as that leader. I voiced my concern of these division leaders of such and just wanted a leader who was going to be here and play the game. Didnt want a figure head that was not going to be here. As far as the promotion thing I was 2nd in charge of this squad. The 1st position came open. I was doing a lot in the fleet with STF runs etc. When It was open, They decided to pick another person over me that was less active in there forums and in game. I'm a game hound and play the game a lot. YES, I was mad, but got over it and moved on. The leading thing, I could and can lead any STF run ask to do. So, don't know where that came from. A good leader is seen and heard..Not ones who hide in private forum rooms and never play the game.

Originally Posted by Firix
This infuriated him, causing him to (to this day) hold a grudge against Ezme. Drama ensued and a long discussion took place in which many ideas were thrown around including removal from the fleet.
Never have I held a grudge against anyone. I dont hold one now for being booted. So, why would I have one for a person who cannot lead a simple infected run. I just didnt like her. She tends to have an ego problem. That why I have a problem with her. She let some command of some forum mode ran fleet, get to her and run her life. Just like allot of others in this guild or fleet.

Originally Posted by Firix
However, we hoped we could avoid that scenario, and Nishka took Kat under his wing in Medical.
The monthly promotions came around. In Medical, promotions to Captain are voted on by current Captains. They voted Liquidzoo in as Captain. Kat however, just saw this as Nishka passing him over for promotion.
I moved to this medical division which is being lead by a nice guy Nishka due to the fact that MACO was leaderless and was not going anywhere with any directions within the fleet with events. Nishka offered me a place, due to the uncomfortable environment of a leaderless division of the said MACO's. I respected him for his positive actions in the fleet and in game at the time. I grew to know of him while "Under his wing" felt I was respected and understood. I continued to run STF events in the fleet panel and in there forums at the time. Medical was a home I could be proud of. Unlike the MACO's ,were there was nothing going on at the time. The transfer to medical had nothing to do with the whys and hows of a person who is running it now.
I just wanted to explore my options in other areas of the fleet and Nishka and I ,worked well together in 1 or 2 story events for Role playing stories for the fleet.

Originally Posted by Firix
Kat transferred to Intelligence. By this time, we (command) knew that with this string of behavior, he should not be promoted to Captain. Thus, Kat was made fully aware that he was unlikely to be promoted any time soon.
During Katís time in Maco, Ezme suggested that they needed to run more STFs for the fleet. Ezme had a weekly STF night which was very successful. The STFs were smooth, fast and everyone had a good laugh. Kat also began doing some runs, which werenít initially as successful as they became.
The captain rank in the forums..I was not concerned with. I moved to Intelligence to be a quiet person due to the fact of it was the only division that was inactive with its members until of recent with there Section 31 spying activity on members.
"Ezme had a weekly STF night which was very successful."..this was a the time back in October, the runs she was running were always lead by people who knew the ins and outs of the STF's not her! She didn't even schedule them in the panel in game. So, hardly anyone knew about them except for her friends."The STFs were smooth, fast and everyone had a good laugh" by who her and her friends? Thats news to me. All, I heard was how badly ran they were and NO one had fun.

"Kat also began doing some runs, which werenít initially as successful as they became"..I was scheduling them and running them in game and in the forums back in early October. Where Ezme just started to run them on Thursdays nite of pacific time only. So, if you live in Europe or some far away country you never saw a run from her. I scheduled all my runs 2 times a week or did random ones for people who wanted to do them. I did the on Saturdays all day for a short time when the borg toys released. Ezme was AFK for the moths of November and December.. There were no STF runs coming from her or any MACO's at the time. The MACO's are the STF division and only the can run them so I was told by the admirals.

Originally Posted by Firix
During the holiday period at the end of the year, Ezme had to put a hold on these runs as she has a family, and one of our main guidelines in 12th Fleet is that real life comes first. This made Katís runs far more popular, as he was then the only one regularly scheduling them, combined with the release of the Borg STF loot and the groups filled up quickly.
This is TRUE..The only thing that is not, is the fact that she (Ezme) never put the runs on hold. They never got passed 3 infected runs before people stop coming. They lost, I guess interest in her little party's.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 3
02-06-2011, 10:08 PM
================================================== =================================================

Originally Posted by Firix

Kat asked for an STF division. We said we did not think it was viable because we didn't want members to feel they had to be in that Division to do STFs. Kat proceeded to demand the division, and that he be the leader of it. Eventually we calmed him down and all was (relatively) quiet on the Kat front for a while.
Yes, I asked to get one created and formed. I saw a need for one and I had JOKED about being in charge. I never demanded anything from anyone in the 12th . Calming me down..That's a joke! I was never upset about it. I let it go. The reason it got brought up again was the fact others saw the need or wanted it to happen. The so called MACO division was being labeled as the STF division. Where was the leader Wolv at the time? Or Ezme or Vox? There was still NO leadership from this MACO only club for STF runs. 3 months they where all inactive for these events. Oh yeah they chattered up a storm in the forums about getting drunk and drinking pretend ale. What next? They going to promote smoking in the MACO only club? Reason why I went so quiet was I was playing the game and the forum burned me out with the politics of it

Originally Posted by Firix
I was promoted to Admiral, and created, among other things, a suggestion box.
Kat suggested an STF forum (for organizing them). We said that we did not need a new forum for it, as that is what fleet events is for. A few other members then chimed in about an STF division, which we said was still not possible, and stated the reasons why.
This is and was where the tribble hit the fan. I suggestion a SUB FORUM of sorts for STF runs so new members can see them more. In there events panel, was a jumble or other events and it all ran together. A sub forum made sense and can be used by all. I could care less if I was in charge of it. It was a suggestion for the fleet..Not for me to use.

Originally Posted by Firix
We also stated that Maco was our official ground combat and STF division. Kat said he saw no evidence of this, but I said that Ezme was in the process of training people to lead runs (and now we sometimes have 3 going at once).
Flames ensued. Kat put a stop to all his runs in an attempt to manipulate us into giving in to his wishes and 11 pages later, a sub-forum of Fleet Events was made (primarily as it was seen to be useful for the fleet as a whole. This appeased Kat.
Ok where to start,"Kat said he saw no evidence of this"..still dont and it was and is a joke. More an insult to people in this game who do these runs. MACO was quiet and has been quiet. They will do the runs now. Because of this latest storm of late.

"Ezme was in the process of training people to lead runs (and now we sometimes have 3 going at once)." What? This is more a joke. She took off from the game, but not the forums for months and now she can lead them? I guess. If, I went on vacation for months and I came back to my RL job, I would get a raise too! Another words DREAM ON ! Three at a time? I like to see this, let alone one run being lead by Ezme. She is more a follower then a leader. I'm sorry to say.

"Kat put a stop to all his runs in an attempt to manipulate us into giving in to his wishes "..I did this due to the fact I was being told that MACO is our STF group and you dont need to run them anymore. So, I canceled them all. I let them drive the bus ,since they were the bus driver. I only took a backseat. "manipulate us into giving in to his wishes"..If this was true too, I would have wished bigger and asked for a pony. "manipulate", I dont see how I could have done that to you Firix or anyone else in the 12th fleet. I if could ,there would been alot of new changes within the fleet. I was only a pawn. If I could manipulate people as you say, I would still be in the fleet. make sense?

"11 pages later, a sub-forum of Fleet Events was made (primarily as it was seen to be useful for the fleet as a whole. This appeased Kat" No it did not. Mabey adding the sub forum helped the fleet in more a stream line in the forums with events and all. So YES. "This appeased Kat" No not really due to the fact of being in trouble for suggesting a new thing in a suggestion box. I opened my mouth and got flies!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 4
02-06-2011, 10:12 PM
Originally Posted by Firix
A JAG report was created based on the flaming in the thread, and Kat was talked to once again, by many people, including me, Nishka, Enterprise-D, Edward Reed, Ezme, Velzen Dar and Khajjah, all of whom offered him chances to stop this happening again. division in the fleet, that is a joke too..They stand for Justice as like a court of law would work. There is No justice ,but a kangaroo court of immature people who side with there friends. The JAG report was entered by me as to direct attention to one of there own Edward Reed. who committed offenses against a fellow member(me) in the forums.

"flaming in the thread"
was on the behalf of some admirals and others who wanted to discuss there opinion on STF's and such. I voiced my comments on the FACT of a division that does nothing and is still somewhat leaderless. I found it funny how there are so ACTIVE in these said runs and are they STF division of the fleet. That was basically what I said. They see something different. They seem to think I was attacking people in the admiral only club. I believe they felt threatened and there was jealousy among certain people in the click or group of me when it came to the STF's. Who knows.? Who cares..?

"all of whom offered him chances to stop this happening again."
What ? This is NEWS to me..Never happened.

Originally Posted by Firix
Several more incidents occurred and in the end, he was offered the chance to step out of the fleet quietly. He would be allowed on TS as an ally of the fleet and would be given the time to ask his closest friends if they wanted to leave with him to create a new fleet.
This way, Kat would leave the fleet, and we would pursue diplomatic relations with his fleet, so that we could run STFs and fleet actions with them.
Several? In what terms? I was afk from the 12th forums for the last 30 days. I was a good boy! So where is this several incidents ? I played the game. Where were you forum hounds? Like alice in wonderland,"Off with your head"!

"pursue diplomatic relations with his fleet"
with the 12th? NOPE when pigs fly..I going to the nearst NOVA in sector space and going to cloak from you guys. Too much drama you 12th fleet guys are and your forums..

"we could run STFs and fleet actions with them." Never in a million years.. You boys burned that bridge. You never even asked me any of these things? These are all made up!

Next Firix, your going to tell me that Santa Clause is real. and UFO do exist ! One heck of a fish tail you tell.
It was THIS big..! And really , it was like 2 inches long.

Originally Posted by Firix
Kat did not take this opportunity, and instead asked the Admirals to vote on whether to kick him from the fleet or not.
Thus ensued another huge thread in the Officer's Lounge, with everyone debating pros, cons, and if there was anything we could do to save the situation.
"opportunity"..when? never happened !

"asked the Admirals to vote" Really..Never happened either. I must have been muted in your Team speak by the controlers of JAG and the other puppet followers admirals of the 12th.

Originally Posted by Firix
In the end, after the long thread, and another long discussion at the meeting on Saturday, we decided it would be best for him, and for the fleet if he was removed.
Bearing in mind we still would have allowed him to leave quietly, we invited him into the channel and told him that unfortunately we had decided that 12th was not the right fit for him.
He proceeded to be confrontational, picking on individuals and bashing them.
A meeting that lasted 3 hours in a Teamspeak.
"Bearing in mind we still would have allowed him to leave quietly" This was a joke too..I was booted from the forums within seconds of coming or being dragged into there private room. I said hello..And someone said "Were booting you from fleet" I replied , "What are the charges". They said nothing..Only your not for us.

"He proceeded to be confrontational" not true. I said that they were chicken hearted people who never got to know me. Only one or two did confront me.And the rest were a bunch of followers and witch hunters. Lets burn him cause ONE person said too.

I did say something to one or two admirals some basic comments. I do not recall . I was upset and disgusted that there 12th fleet justice system and rules did not apply to me. I was Black to there white. I did not fit with there socail club and casted an outcast. There own Admirals in that meeting were all above there own rules and they could not live by them. The say Democracy. I say more like a Dictatorship fleet. One rule and it's there way or the highway!

Originally Posted by Firix
In the end, Khajjah took him aside to discuss what was to transpire. Khaj took Kat up to the lounge in TS to say his goodbyes, and started bashing Ezme. After this act, there was no way we could be allied with him. There would be too much bad karma and we felt that he would also hold a grudge against us.
So we removed his rights from the forums (he could still post in our public forums), TeamSpeak, the fleet and all other lines of communication were cut.
I admit..I was not happy..I was being booted from a group of people Ive know for several months due to insecureness and misunderstanding. When I was in that TS room. I said my good byes with maturity and di NOT say anything bad to anyone. I said good luck to a guy named Esray and Khajjah booted me from the teamspeak.

Originally Posted by Firix
In 12th Fleet history we have only ever had to remove 3 people from the fleet, each one taking months of discussion and debate, before no other option was available. The removal of a member is always a sad and difficult time, no matter what that person may have done. We hope that, after the wounds have healed, 12th Fleet will be stronger for this.
Feel free to post questions below, I will try to answer them to the best of my ability.

Funny, wish I had the same rights as those 3 did. All I got was a Judged and hung all in 5 minutes during that TS chat..
"The removal of a member is always a sad and difficult time" Yeah..I belive this when it happens for real !

Again PLEASE do not take ths as a rant / attack / or flame war action on anyone. I felt, I should be able to be able to respond to the 12th fleet admirals in a response. If the DEVs feel this is against STO forum rules of conduct , Then Im sorry. I just wanted to inform the comminity of how a large fleet can sometimes be too big for themselves and forget about the people who love the game .I am such a person . I care about people who play your game and NOT play forum games such as an enity of the 12th fleet.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 5
02-06-2011, 10:49 PM

The fleet that gets larger then say 200 plus, will run into problems. The fleet that I was part of definitely had problems before I got there and will continue to have them way after I have left. Some people tend to blow things apart and create drama. I did no things. I just wanted to play the game and have fun. When I 1st joined ,I got hooked into the forums like a junkie on drugs. Almost a month in the fleet,I noticed that I was on the forums more and more. I also realized that my game play was suffering due to the drama and politics of said forum. Had to take a step back and see the picture.

I started to turn my attention to doing the raids of the game to get me off the forums. It worked..I started to get better with each run and started to have fun again in STO. It just came to a point while being in the 12th, that my suggestions and ideas were not getting me anywhere due to the constant friction between me and some of the leaders of pretend divisions.

There forums was a joke to me, I thought. When, I saw it for what it really is, it made me realize that I had made a mistake joining the 12th. They were not the organized giant of STO they claim to be. They really are more forum strong then game strong. Some community's in MMO games tend to go 2 directions. One is game and one is forums. The 12th is a nice place if you like forums.. I'm not a really a forum person ,but got caught up in it like a monkey on the back. I stand tall and proud and say to the 12th fleet, good luck with the forum game play! All the leaders in that forum..good luck to you too.

In a way, this letter or reply is like a good bye and good luck to them and a warning to others who think about joining a large fleet..Think twice and follow the bellow suggestions. Don't be a KAT and get caught up in some guild war or some political fight in a forum..PLAY THE GAME

STO forums..I really have not posted all that much in the last several months until now. This reason why I choose to do it now? I wanted the people out there to know that a LARGE fleet is NOT what its cracked up to be. Its all smoke and mirrors. Don't be tricked with there large numbers and there many posts and there always at the top of some thread in some forum like this. It shows the people of a certain fleet are insecure within them selves by doing random dumb posts such as "Hello..Im home" quotes in there area. Nothing related to there fleet or the game. They use this forum and there own as like a cell phone to chat..Primary to bump there page. You can see the same person, day after day making dumb comments on " ice tea" in a STO forums..

I say to that person..You need help! Get a life! Join a company that does forums and make some money.
Move out of the mommies house and grow up!

Some questions you need to ask yourself before you join a large fleet in STO.

1) Are the Organized and do things for members?
2) What is there recruitment policy?
3) Do they leaders and officers play the game?
4) Do they have a forum and if so,is it easy to access?
5) Will they treat you like a number? (Some fleets will recruit for numbers only and not the people)
6) Do they have plans on doing things with in the fleet such as events and such?
7) If there rules take more than 5 minutes to read in there forums,then I would not join.
8) Ask if there officers play the game once every 6 months and play more forums (need good officers)?
9) Is it worth joining Large fleets or guilds?
10) If the application to join a large fleet requires a dictionary to understand the fine print, NOT a good choice to join!
11) Do the play the game?
12) Do they play well with others?
13) Do they like to help others and stay true to there word?
14) Are they in a time zone you can play with them?
15) Is there a Ventrillo or Teampeak to join to chat to people around the world while playing STO ?

I'm sure there is more to add. Use your judgment before you join something you will regret in a months time.
There are a tons of great small fleets out there who care and don't have forums and divisions and squads and this and that. Keep it small and keep it simple.Its a GAME ! Play it and have fun.

To add..If you want to rant or whatever..Then go ahead, I don't care. At least you know you can voice your 2 cents here unlike a certain fleet that can censor you in the flash of an eye. Or burn you at the stake for whatever dumb reasons.

To the people in that fleet. Good luck to the members and all the people I never got to know and to the ones who could cared less about me. Well , your loss. I have the game! What do you have?

No more forums for me. I said what I wanted to say.

Thank you..

Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 6
02-07-2011, 08:30 AM
Sorry wrong post.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 7
02-07-2011, 01:26 PM
This is NOT what the fleet forums are to be used for. Please do not force our hand on this matter; Stormy was really upset the last time he had to play crackdown on the fleet forums.
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:11 PM.