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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
Not exactly a new topic. Supposedly, it was discussed already 7 months ago, and it is yet to be implemented.

But I still maintain it is a good idea. It doesn't have the same appeal as Open PvP Territory Control, but it provide something territory control also provides - a lasting measure of progress and success, a form of "persistence". Even if it's just in a statistic and not in a neatly sector map clean of any hostile bases...

First things first: The goal of any "leaderboard" system should probably not be to try to shoehorn the various achievements peoople have made into a single stat. Instead, it should basically a big statistics, and people might lead in one area, and fall behind in another. This gives plenty of motivation for people with different interests.

Score Time Frame
I think the system would work best with some kind of "monthly" leaderboard that tracks only events that happened within the leaderboard. There could also be statistics that are tracked for all eternity, but not all stats make sense for that, as new players can never hope to exceed certain figures compared to an experienced players, and that might feel unsatisfying.
As a result, we distinguish between "Lifetime" and "Monthly" Statistics.

Except where indicated otherwise, we track only "official" events, that generally means queued fights and specifically sanctioned events, should we ever get official tournament mechanics. Maybe we allow also private challenges if certain requirements are met.

Fleet and Player leaderboards
The leaderboards also allow accumulation of data of all players in a fleet. The statistics only track a member of the fleet for the fleet statistics for the best half of the active players in any given category. (this limitation allows good fleets to accept newbies and give them time to train.)

Visual Representation
The leaderboards are ideally highly configurable, allowing a more finegrained view for specific statistics, and allowing to describe information on a per player or per character basis.

Score Categories to Track

Total Matches Played
A very simple statistics. It can be used both in the monthly and in the lifetime leaderboards. As a special requirement: Monthly statistics are only provided for months a player has played a minimum amount of matches (in an effort to average out random outliers, like a particularly good match).

This statistics might be also allow a more finegrained view, distinguishing between C&H, Arenas, FvK, KvK, FvF, private or queued, space and ground.

Some "core statistics" that might get priority in tracking are listed in italics.

Most Flown Ship
Self-explaining.
Finegrained view allows to Per character and per player

Matches Won
Matches Played
Match Win Ratio
Most Damage in One Match
Most Kills in One Match
Total Kills
Average Kills
Average Damage Per Match
Most Healing in one Match
Average healing Per Match
Highest Death Count in One Match
Total Deaths
Kill/Death Ratio
Average Deaths per Match
Top Speed (no Full Impulse?)
Top Speed (no Full Impulse?) per match
Average Speed (no Full Impulse?) per match
Time Spent in Matches

All these allow fine grained view by match type, as above.

#Succesful Completion of War Zone Objectives
#Failed Completions of War Zone Objectives

Leaderboard Reward Mechanics
At the end of each month, the monthly and lifetime leaderboards are evaluated and top ranks and lowest ranks are determined.
The top 3 are recognized publically, but the one with the "worst" stat might get his own little reward (He doesn't have to tell anyone and get his fingers pointed at. )

Only people that have completed at least 12 PvP matches or missions (War Zone) in the respective mont are eligible for recognition. This means inactive players do not hog prizes.

Accolades
If you achieve one of the top 3 ranks in any given major statistics, or the lowest, you earn a special accolade. There are additional accolades that track doing it 3, 6, 9, 12, 24 and 36 times.

Trophy
If you ever were in the top 3 in any given category at any point, you get a trophy. The trophy ideally is also designed to show in some form how often you won it.

In-Game Reward
The top 3 in any given category also earn some form of in-game resources.Be it Emblems, access to special crafting items. It shouldn't really be something balance changing per se. Maye it should be items that, instead of usable by them, are usable by others, allowing sale on the Exchange or given out as gifts.
(I imagine some fun items like "IWin Button" or "Champion's Breakfest".


Extensions

PvE
The system could also be used to go beyond PvP, and also track PvE efforts. Possible Statistics:
  • Accolade Score
  • Anomalies Gathered
  • Missions Completed (without exploration)
  • Exploration Missions completed
  • STF Raid Times
  • STF damage/healing/death/kills stats (see PvP)
  • Fleet Action Times
  • Fleet Action damage/healing/kills stats (see PvP)
  • Distance Traveled at warp
  • Distance traveled with slipstream
  • Distance traveled at impulse
  • Transwarps
  • Total PvE Kills
  • Total PvE Deaths

PvP Queue System
Some core statistics might be identified (for example, "Matches Won") to help guide the PvP Queue system which players should end in the same match and on the same or different sides.

Fleet Rewards
In a later step, the reward mechanics might also be extended to aid fleets. Especially once fleet starbases get implemented, it might be interesting to use leader boards to grant fleets access to specific options ("cheaper" access or exclusive access). At that point, extending the statistics to also score PvE leader boards makes a lot of sense.
Some items and boons might require defending the fleets position on the leaderboards, encouraging both competition and excellence.

Negatively of course, such competition can cause animosity - some care needs to be taken that stuff is not _too_ exclusive.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2
03-17-2011, 04:03 PM
that sounds good to me. when i read the post 7 months ago, i was really hoping for it. well, at least we got the challange option.

the rewards shouldn't be any uber items, but i would like to see some fluff stuff. maybe a special uniform, an emote or a ship costume (well, that one could be difficult).
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 3
03-17-2011, 04:05 PM
Very well presented Mustrum!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 4
03-17-2011, 05:11 PM
Lots of good ideas here; I agree that getting stat-tracking and leaderboards into the game would help boost PvP a lot, by giving people a measurable sense of achievement and incentive to play (especially if tied to new accolades).

However I will say that, at least to begin with, I would actually prefer a slightly more simplistic system than what you're proposing here, just to make it easier to code, so that it can reach us quicker. So, drop the stats on damage/healing (and especially speed, I don't particularly see the point in that - he who Evasive Maneuvers the most wins?). But at the same time, I'd add trackers for "Daily" as well as "Weekly", "Monthly", and "Lifetime" stats. Oh, and the Holy Kill/Death Ratio.

I'd like to get the basic stat-tracking functionality in first though, and then actual leaderboards at a later point, once that first plank has been put in and tested to be working properly. Until then, Accolades/Trophies could/should just be tied to certain milestone numbers related to the various stats.

Aside from that, the suggestions for Accolades and Trophies are great (we must have a "One Shot One Kill" Accolade for Minimax to chase), and using the code to also create PvE stats is a stroke of genius, so that the system becomes something which doesn't only benefit PvPers - it would be something of interest to all players.

As we should be mindful of Cryptic's limited resources, I think it's important for any system not to be overly ambitious. Keep it simple and straightforward for the initial implementation, and then expand it afterwards. No doubt the major stumbling block is going to be creating the new UI functionality for some sort of "PvP/PvE Stats" screen - the less demands we place on the devs, the easier it'll be for them to achieve, and so the more they'll be inclined to get it down, hopefully.

Ultimately, this is something that has been promised for a while - if there's any chance at all that we could get even a basic beta version of this functionality in Season 4, that would, in this player's opinion, be completely awesome.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 5
03-17-2011, 05:35 PM
Another excellent and detailed post by Mustrum!

Make it so!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 6
03-17-2011, 07:00 PM
im worried about us science players though, going by the looks of those rankings. the average support science guy wouldnt be getting much of anything because hes not "doing" anything. anything being, getting kills/doing damage. now if all of the science abilities that do damage (im looking at charged burst and tachyon beam) could be counted as well (ideally as the actual damage done to a single facing, not all 4 together) and yeah.... just a little worried, but otherwise looks great

-stands on the bow of his ship arms out stretched- IM THE KING OF THE PVP!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 7
03-18-2011, 01:28 AM
Some pretty good ideas and I think we can all agree that we need some kind of ranking and I really hope it will be implemented with the PvP season in autumn (I doubt it will happen sooner ).

Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
Score Time Frame
I think the system would work best with some kind of "monthly" leaderboard that tracks only events that happened within the leaderboard. There could also be statistics that are tracked for all eternity, but not all stats make sense for that, as new players can never hope to exceed certain figures compared to an experienced players, and that might feel unsatisfying.
As a result, we distinguish between "Lifetime" and "Monthly" Statistics.
I would add a third type of time frame. Well not exactly a time frame.
The monthly ranking is a very short time frame and shows only a very limited picture. The lifetime ranking on the other hand has, as you mentioned, the problem that new players or players which take a break will never be on top.
So I think there is third type needed which relates the lifetime numbers to the actual playtime. In the end you would have a statistic which tells you you have on average killed X players (or whatever) in 1 week/day/month of actual playtime (the time you get with the console-cmd /played).
In that way you will get a ranking where even totally new players can be on top very fast but on the same time you will include all the matches you have ever played.



Quote:
Except where indicated otherwise, we track only "official" events, that generally means queued fights and specifically sanctioned events, should we ever get official tournament mechanics. Maybe we allow also private challenges if certain requirements are met.
I would count in all queued fights as we have now and maybe a special ranking for tournaments if we ever get them. But I would never count private challenges. If you do this there is too much risk that the ranking will be manipulated... and we know there are people who would do this in any way possible especially if there is some kind of reward.


Quote:
Fleet and Player leaderboards
The leaderboards also allow accumulation of data of all players in a fleet. The statistics only track a member of the fleet for the fleet statistics for the best half of the active players in any given category. (this limitation allows good fleets to accept newbies and give them time to train.)
Well... personally I think in a fleet ranking the whole fleet should count no matter if there are new people or not. On the other hand I can understand it might happen that fleets don't want to accept new members because they will fall back in the ranking. A possible solution is to make one ranking for the whole fleet and another one for the best 5/10/... players of a fleet. So you can always filter out the newcomers of a fleet.

Quote:
Visual Representation
The leaderboards are ideally highly configurable, allowing a more finegrained view for specific statistics, and allowing to describe information on a per player or per character basis.
Beside per player/per character you can add per fed/kling characters of an account.


Quote:
Score Categories to Track
Most Flown Ship
Self-explaining.
Finegrained view allows to Per character and per player

Matches Won
Matches Played
Match Win Ratio
Most Damage in One Match
Most Kills in One Match
Total Kills
Average Kills
Average Damage Per Match
Most Healing in one Match
Average healing Per Match
Highest Death Count in One Match
Total Deaths
Kill/Death Ratio
Average Deaths per Match
Top Speed (no Full Impulse?)
Top Speed (no Full Impulse?) per match
Average Speed (no Full Impulse?) per match
Time Spent in Matches

All these allow fine grained view by match type, as above.

#Succesful Completion of War Zone Objectives
#Failed Completions of War Zone Objectives
Time spent, speed and War Zone Objectives is a bit too much I think. On the other hand I would add Most Healing of others/self in one match and Average Healing of others/self per match.
And as someone has already mentioned Sci-ships get the short end of the stick again. Sadly I can't think of any good way to change this. One way at least for SS would be any dmg a scrambled enemy inflicts to his friends or every heal he gives to one of his enemies counts for the ship which used SS (most powerful counts) as heal/dmg.


Quote:
Leaderboard Reward Mechanics
At the end of each month, the monthly and lifetime leaderboards are evaluated and top ranks and lowest ranks are determined.
The top 3 are recognized publically, but the one with the "worst" stat might get his own little reward (He doesn't have to tell anyone and get his fingers pointed at. )

Only people that have completed at least 12 PvP matches or missions (War Zone) in the respective mont are eligible for recognition. This means inactive players do not hog prizes.
Yes the best players should get a reward/accolade/whatever after a certain amount of time (one month sounds reasonable). But rewarding bad players? While it might be an incentive for non PvPs to join there will be many which will just PvP to lose. And this will harm the overall quality of PvP matches. Sadly I see no way to prevent such abuse of the system.


Quote:
Accolades
If you achieve one of the top 3 ranks in any given major statistics, or the lowest, you earn a special accolade. There are additional accolades that track doing it 3, 6, 9, 12, 24 and 36 times.

Trophy
If you ever were in the top 3 in any given category at any point, you get a trophy. The trophy ideally is also designed to show in some form how often you won it.

In-Game Reward
The top 3 in any given category also earn some form of in-game resources.Be it Emblems, access to special crafting items. It shouldn't really be something balance changing per se. Maye it should be items that, instead of usable by them, are usable by others, allowing sale on the Exchange or given out as gifts.
(I imagine some fun items like "IWin Button" or "Champion's Breakfest".
All good ideas but special access to items which you can only achieve via top ranking PvP? We know how part of the community reacted as the Borg-set was announced to be only achievable via STFs. Limiting items to an even smaller group the forum will go down in flames. Being able to sell the items wouldn't help much because the prize would be extremely high. So actual items no. But maybe titles or EC/Merit/Emblems maybe even free respec or in case of an official tournament a certain amount of C-Store points.


Quote:
Extensions

PvE
The system could also be used to go beyond PvP, and also track PvE efforts. Possible Statistics:
  • Accolade Score
  • Anomalies Gathered
  • Missions Completed (without exploration)
  • Exploration Missions completed
  • STF Raid Times
  • STF damage/healing/death/kills stats (see PvP)
  • Fleet Action Times
  • Fleet Action damage/healing/kills stats (see PvP)
  • Distance Traveled at warp
  • Distance traveled with slipstream
  • Distance traveled at impulse
  • Transwarps
  • Total PvE Kills
  • Total PvE Deaths
Isn't that what we have accolades for? I can see a ranking for STFs, FA and maybe PvE kills/death but overall I see no real use in it because it doesn't mean anything. Most anomalies gathered... probably a gold seller, distance traveled/transwarps... tells me nothing about the player.


Quote:
PvP Queue System
Some core statistics might be identified (for example, "Matches Won") to help guide the PvP Queue system which players should end in the same match and on the same or different sides.
I agree a certain set of statistics weighted in some form to make a general ranking would be perfect to balance groups in the PvP Queue.


Quote:
Fleet Rewards
In a later step, the reward mechanics might also be extended to aid fleets. Especially once fleet starbases get implemented, it might be interesting to use leader boards to grant fleets access to specific options ("cheaper" access or exclusive access). At that point, extending the statistics to also score PvE leader boards makes a lot of sense.
Some items and boons might require defending the fleets position on the leaderboards, encouraging both competition and excellence.

Negatively of course, such competition can cause animosity - some care needs to be taken that stuff is not _too_ exclusive.
Same problem as with the individual rewards.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 8
03-18-2011, 02:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vampir888 View Post
All good ideas but special access to items which you can only achieve via top ranking PvP? We know how part of the community reacted as the Borg-set was announced to be only achievable via STFs
To be blunt - I don't care if there are some people angry about it. I never really intended to do the STFs and am not bothered by the fact I can't get that specific toy. The trick is to make items that are not overpowered , not must-haves, and - maybe most important - mutually exlcusive. So you can't get the OMGWTFPWN PvP set, but you can get the OMGWTFPWN Crafting sets. Even if you had access to them all equally, you can use only one of them.

A fair compromise in my opinion would be making the "exclusive" stuff not exclusive, but considerably easier to get. Like an Emblem Rebate system - 75 % for buying item X. Or an "anomaly booster pack".

Maybe it could be a good idea to flesh out some reward ideas and see how people think about them.

Quote:
Isn't that what we have accolades for?
Yes, but the accolades are only visible for the respective player, you don't know what other people have gathered. Cryptic considers making the accolade score itself visible as part of the UI, but this would be more fine-grained and give people options to "hunt" in specific areas and actively compete there.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 9
03-18-2011, 02:19 AM
I don't think deaths should be kept track of. Otherwise people will log out to avoid them.
I also have a problem with a "kill" count, because of the way STO keeps track of kills. The way it works now, if 5 people focus fire & kill a ship, Each of them get a kill on the scoreboard. Unless that was changed, it seems to me that all you have to do to inflate this number is to use a large number of AOE attacks., or constantly switch targets.
I think an easier & more accurate way to run a leaderboard would be to keep track of only a few things, like damage & healing. I further believe that there should be 3 leaderboards, 1 for Tac, Sci, & Engi, classes. It could be further subdivided into PVP & PVE, & space & ground.The only PVP scores that should count are Qued matches, I know 2 people who have multiple computers & accounts, who do their PVP dailies by logging on both accounts, & doing private matches against themselves.To avoid using this to skew the leaderboard results,private matches should NOT count.
Anyway, That's my 2 EC's worth
EDIT-I guess accolade points could also be added in there, & possibly crafting points as well.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 10
03-18-2011, 02:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by amidoinitright View Post
I don't think deaths should be kept track of. Otherwise people will log out to avoid them.
I also have a problem with a "kill" count, because of the way STO keeps track of kills. The way it works now, if 5 people focus fire & kill a ship, Each of them get a kill on the scoreboard. Unless that was changed, it seems to me that all you have to do to inflate this number is to use a large number of AOE attacks., or constantly switch targets.
If I understand the system correctly, it doesn't work like t hat. You need to deal a minimum amount of damage to the target, but I am not sure what the minimum is - I think it has to be half of the target's hull or something.

Quote:
I think an easier & more accurate way to run a leaderboard would be to keep track of only a few things, like damage & healing. I further believe that there should be 3 leaderboards, 1 for Tac, Sci, & Engi, It could be further subdivided into PVP & PVE, & space & ground.
This could be an additional sorting / finegrained view option. My idea is ultimately that we track tons of statistics, and allow different views on them, and some of them are used for a small reward system in form of accolades, trophies, and item/currency rewards. A distinction along the lines of ship & player class makes sense to me here.
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