Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 1 Grind Missions "Violation"
04-18-2011, 08:46 PM
I don't pretend that I don't make grind missions - I did, I had one KDF side that was largely popular.

This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Atari Community Rules and Policies ~<GM Jahia>

If you want to make it your stance that we can not make grind missions, that's fine - as I have personally said before, I will stand by their legitimacy until there is such a time that a clear indication of them being against the terms of service is made. This generic letter does not cut it.

Yes, you will make the argument that they pulled it, and so that's their sign that it is the reason, but this is not a clear letter. They simply state it violated the EULA, and pointed you to the STO EULA, which addresses issues not directly related to the foundry, and the Foundry EULA predominately deals with the rights to access to Star Trek properties.

I am not asking you to concede to allowing Grind Missions, but what I am asking you is to make a very clear open *verbal* stance on this.

If it is your intention to make grind missions against the EULA/TOS, it should *say so in them*. Right now, the EULA link provided links to the STO EULA, and does not include the Foundry's EULA, which it should. And somewhere in the EULA, or in *any* of the Foundry FAQS, threads, or official postings, there needs to be an official statement that clearly defines that this is not the way to go.

Why, you ask? Yes, the people who had made these missions did get a removal notice. That doesn't stop anyone, and it isn't really informative to have angry anti-grind mission players throwing nonsensical reports or threats in forums, in channels, or in threads. Just make it a clear notice, and people can just point it at someone, and go.

Ambiguous mailers don't work, unclear EULA/TOS notices don't work. You need to be clear and concise, and we can just get this over with and move on.

The missions are either a violation, period. Or they are not a violation, period. You don't help yourself any by every once and awhile clearing out through the missions that will crop up as long as you don't visibly put your foot down on the matter.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2
04-18-2011, 08:50 PM
Firstly, I'm glad they are finally doing something about this issue. Second, I agree te Foundry rules need to clearly state that missions designed just to grind are now allowed.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 3
04-18-2011, 09:08 PM
This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Atari Community Rules and Policies ~WishStone
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 4
04-18-2011, 09:34 PM
Did they revoke your Foundry Access entirely? Or did just the missions in question become unpublishable?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 5
04-18-2011, 10:13 PM
Originally Posted by The Foundry - End User License Agreement

The Program ("Star Trek Online") contains certain design, programming and processing utilities, tools, assets and other resources ("The Foundry") for use with the Program that allow you to create customized new game levels and other related game materials for personal use in connection with the Program ("New Game Materials"). The use of the Foundry is subject to the following additional license restrictions:

New Game Materials may be created only if such New Game Materials can be used exclusively in combination with the online version of the Program. New Game Materials may not be designed to be used as a stand-alone product.

New Game Materials you create using the Foundry are subject to the following rules and restrictions:

Star Trek Properties are defined as including:
  • Star Trek - The Original Series
  • Star Trek - The Next Generation
  • Star Trek - Deep Space Nine
  • Star Trek - Voyager
  • Star Trek - Enterprise
  • Star Trek - The Motion Picture
  • Star Trek II - The Wrath of Kahn
  • Star Trek III - The Search for Spock
  • Star Trek IV - The Voyage Home
  • Star Trek V - The Final Frontier
  • Star Trek VI - The Undiscovered Country
  • Star Trek - Generations
  • Star Trek - First Contact
  • Star Trek - Insurrection
  • Star Trek - Nemesis

New Game Materials may utilize the Star Trek Properties as provided by CBS and Cryptic Studios unless otherwise specified in the Prohibited Section below. You may use the names of characters (past or present) from the Star Trek Properties.

Prohibited Uses of the Star Trek Properties:
  • You may not use the first or last names, likenesses, or other depictions of any actors appearing in, or writers, directors, or producers of the Star Trek Properties.
  • You may not use copyrighted content from the properties, including but not limited to web content, promotional materials (posters, advertisements) or existing licensed merchandise (novels, trading cards, figurines).

Other Prohibited uses of New Game Materials published using The Foundry:
  • You may not use New Game Materials to endorse or oppose any political party, association (e.g., republican, democrat, candidates of otherwise) of any side of any issue.
  • You may not use New Game Materials to depict a likeness of any real person (historical or preset day.)
  • You may not use New Game Materials to advertise any business, products or services of any party.
  • You may not publish web URLs in your content.
  • You may not use New Game Materials to convey any profanity, vulgar, hate language, explicit sexual language, derogatory references to race, gender, religion, age, mental or physical impairment, obesity or sexual orientation, or reference any drugs (legal or illicit) or medication.
  • You may not make use of any copyrighted or trademarked materials of third parties, and only may use the Star Trek Properties as explicitly defined in this agreement, without irrevocable licenses granted specifically for that purpose
  • You may not use New Game Materials to infringe on the rights of privacy and publicity of third parties.

Cryptic Studios and CBS reserve the right to remove any New Game Materials for any reason at any time, without providing cause or recompense.

You agree that, all New Game Materials produced using the Foundry becomes the property of Cryptic Studios, to use as they see fit.

As a condition to your using the Foundry, you will not use or allow third parties to use the Foundry and the New Game Materials created by you for any commercial purposes, including but ton limited to selling, renting, leasing, licensing, distributing, or otherwise transferring the ownership of such New Game Materials, whether on a standalone basis or packaged in combination with the New Game Materials created by others, through any and all distribution channels, including, without limitation, retail sales and on-line electronic distribution. You agree not to solicit, initiate, or encourage any proposal or offer from amy person or entity to create any New Game Materials for commercial distribution. You agree to promptly inform Cryptic Studios in writing of any instances of your receipt of any such proposal or offer. If you decide to make available the use of the New Game Materials created by you to other gamers, you agree to do so solely without charge.
I'm tired of typing. Sorry for any errors that may have crept in. Why can't I copy and paste that?

Are you sure they were referring to the FOUNDRY EULA? Seems more likely that the people pulling the episodes might have been referring to the STO EULA/Terms of Service. with it's provisions against hacking and doing things that the game was not intended to do.

Also, this thread seems pretty close to violating the rule concerning "discussing specific acts of moderation".. I'd suggest that while this is indeed an issue of concern for all foundry authors, it might be best to rephrase the OP in more general terms. As a prospective author, I am interested to know if there IS a line that was crossed by these missions, where that specific line IS, so I don't cross it by mistake with my missions. How many spiders, for example, are a legitimate swarm? and how many are abuse?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 6
04-18-2011, 10:15 PM
The problem is, there is no clarity here. Falling back into blanket statements while legally sound, is not very good practice.

I'm not arguing whether or not this is a valid map style. That they pulled the maps at all is indicative that they don't think so.

What I am actually asking for is better clarity on what is and is not acceptable. What has happened is they're being very quiet about it because it allows for the most safety and flexibility. They can't be held accountable if they don't make a direct statement.

I wouldn't be surprised if they're doing this as a quick sweep, and awaiting for some legal mumbo jumbo to help them cover their bases better.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 7
04-18-2011, 10:36 PM
The Foundry terms of use is a bit ridiculous. You can't use the first or last names of actors/writers/directors involved with ST? Umm, there have been hundreds of people who filled those roles. By that standard pretty much any common first name is unusable, as are many last names.

That language really should be changed to say you cannot refer to those people by name, or even use their whole name, but not that you flat out can't use their first or last names. It's not like people have a claim to the name "John" or "Patrick", nor even the last name "Stewart", for that matter.

I think one of my characters might have incidentally had the first name John, so I'm apparently in violation. Probably it's not going to be enforced like that, but still, the language should be made more clear.

Along with that they should add something about not making grind missions.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 8
04-19-2011, 08:41 PM
Originally Posted by PodSix
I'd suggest that while this is indeed an issue of concern for all foundry authors, it might be best to rephrase the OP in more general terms.
It's not an issue of concern for all foundry authors, because most foundry authors know that using the foundry doesn't make the STO Rules of Conduct suddenly not apply to you, and it clearly prohibits exploits.

Crafting your own exploit and then exploiting it is obviously wrong, and anyone who says they don't realize that is being disingenuous.

Whether you've read them or not, you know it's wrong, and if anyone says they don't, I don't believe them.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 9
04-18-2011, 09:42 PM
Originally Posted by BrokenMirror
This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Atari Community Rules and Policies ~WishStone
Like I just said, I agree they need to make the rules clear. But theres no way I'm going to believe you honestly thought that grind missions were how the Foundry was intended to be used. In all the interviews and PR they put out about the Foundry(and it has been quite a bit), not once did they say "and you can make your own grind missions too". No, all their comments were about how you could create your own stories and Trek episodes. So should they have been more clear about the rules? Sure. But you also should have know this was coming.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 10
04-18-2011, 09:51 PM
I stand by the legitimacy of anything until such a time that it is proven otherwise.

Do I consider grinds "what they expected"? No, I certainly don't. But that doesn't mean that they should be punished because something they weren't entirely expecting occured, either.

With no established rules and regulations, you sort of expect people to do things unexpected or even unpopular. There should be clarity on this.

Having spoken to Mirror, his entire Foundry rights have been revoked. He can not publish *any* map at all, and that is from a result of the maps he published that were neverly expressly stated as being against any of the terms of service or end user liscense agreements.

Sexuality is spoken of, crude language is spoken up, drug and alcohol use is spoken of. "Grind missions" or even "missions that could provide an unfair advantage in the progression of the game" are never touched upon, and yet he has been punished and had his rights revoked without even so much as a warning.

No where was a notice about this issue, and that seems to me to be a problem.
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