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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
Let me first preface this by saying that I really love STO, and I think that Cryptic has done a fantastic job injecting new life into the Star Trek gaming community.

Last night, after I outfitted my assault cruiser with a new build and respecced for the nth time, I ran several Arena matches...

At first it seemed that my damage and healing averages along with score were higher than average testing out my new build, but then the last several games saw my numbers fall, fall, and fall even more....

I have spent hours testing different builds, ships, and abilities, crafting new weapons, earning emblems to get new gear, and trying different tactics, and even ‘purchasing’ respec tokens in a vain hope that I would see a consistent and measureable growth in my PVP game play, but if there is some growth it is barely perceptible, and I can still be killed in less than 2 seconds if I find myself in the wrong place at the wrong time – which happens all too often. I could attempt to regroup with my buddies when this happens, but they all respawn halfway across the map, usually on the other side of the enemy who is hunting for loners.
Occasionally, if I die once or twice, the other team begins to smell blood and I become an instant target over and over again.

This is NOT fun.

So after my matches last night I researched posts and reviews about MMO game play in general, of which I have little experience (I am probably going to try out Eve Online soon). And I see over and over that STO pvp has a reputation for being one of the most 'unfun' pvp systems among MMO’s - this is not just my opinion; you can do your own googleing and research.

A few points on this though. Star Trek Online is NOT a strategy or 'tactical' game. It is a game of immersion into the Star Trek universe, albeit a very war-like universe. It is rather unfortunate though, as we have seen in Star Trek canon such as Wrath of Kahn, Balance of Terror, ST Nemesis, and TNG's Peak Performance, that thoughtful tactics and strategy have traditionally been a major part of starship combat in the Star Trek universe.

I am biased and spoiled, I will freely admit that, but I will tell you why.

One of the first space based tactical computer games I played was Independence War back in the mid-90’s. Then after that Homeworld and Homeworld II, and then after that, the big one, Starfleet Command.
In Starfleet Command each ship had a limited number of weapons and shields with very specific facings or firing arcs. Operating a starship was a complex procedure for sure. But what made it fun was that no one weapon, ship type, or tactic had any great advantage over another. If your ship had plasma, you had to manage your speed and power in good timing for those long plasma recharge times, and make sure the enemy was in range before firing the plasma torpedo to make it effective.

If your ship had drones (missiles), you had to figure out whether it was economical to fire several at once, or one at a time, and this depended on the enemy’s ability to shoot them down or outrun them.

If you were dead in space, you could covertly continue to play dead when the enemy did not know you had been working hard to repair your forward photon tubes, and were now charging them to overload, a nasty surprise for the enemy when he closes for the kill.

In STO, if two cruisers have a 1v1 challenge match, they can never die! They can just keep running shield buffs and rarely, if ever, get through the shields. That is not enjoyable as it is a match where you have to stay tense the entire time!

In SFC, no matter how big your ship was, eventually a shield could be worn down over time, exposing a vulnerable position – a downed shield still meant the enemy had to use good timing and the right weapon to take advantage of the opening before turning a good shield to face incoming fire.

Oh and one other thing, big ships could NOT be taken down by a single ship a 5th its size in less than 2 seconds, ever, not even a freighter! Severely damage – yes.

STO has the most beautiful starship flight engine I have ever seen. If gameplay was slowed down to about half, if escorts and science vessels were severely nerfed, if there were less (or far less frequent) ‘spells’, if weapon hard-points had specific firing arcs, and if shielding was more powerful, but unable to regenerate so quickly and so much with powers or in general, then maybe PVP in space would not be so cheesy, spammy, and ridiculously unbalanced.

If different weapons had more dynamic uses or characteristics perhaps, but where no one weapon is favored over others (quantum torps over plasma, phasers over polaron, etc) then you MIGHT have a real game where you could say ‘my strategy and tactics won the day’.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2 Typical I quit response:
11-05-2011, 11:43 AM
Can I has ur Energy Credits?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 3
11-05-2011, 11:53 AM
While i think you're idea of balance would never work, it's sad to see someone pvping go.

good luck.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 4
11-05-2011, 02:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thamapp
While i think you're idea of balance would never work, it's sad to see someone pvping go.
Thank you, but both agree and disagree with you. It would work, but you would have to recode the combat system completely - and for cryptic, that would never work (at least I doubt it).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Fairchilde
Fighting games have it. You are envisioning some turn-based or submarine style slowly thought out and carefully calculated style of combat, which is not the direction modern age pvp has evolved into.
Thats not 'evolution' for everyone. I do not necessarily want a turn-based system either. Starcraft 2 is an extremely though out RTS as well all know, although it does often require extremely fast reaction and macro.

However, YES I want a submarine style or naval warfare - ish combat system for any Star Trek game involving starships.

Starships ARE extremely large, majestic, and complex machines in the Star Trek universe, OK well at least until DS9, Voyager, and Enterprise, when they became more like large fighters in many battles - but still...
At least STO gets away from the fighter-like starship mentality with cruisers - which just sorta hang out and absorb damage but cannot woop-***.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 5
11-05-2011, 11:57 AM
Real time combat and split second decisions are what make arena/pvping fun. Wow has it, Diablo 3 will have it, HoN has it, Fighting games have it. You are envisioning some turn-based or submarine style slowly thought out and carefully calculated style of combat, which is not the direction modern age pvp has evolved into.

This game already has been through the "healing wins all" and not enough damage being pumped out style of combat. Heck we are still there to a degree, with Subnuc being the only real good way to bust a double extends or double healing premade.

Slowing the PvP down is not the answer. Already can have 30 minute to an hour long premade matches with equally skilled teams.
Giving tac the ability to target subsystems with non-beam types (and shutting the systems down) vs non-tacs only being able to drain power from targetting subsystems (this gives tac the flexibility to punch through tss+extended shield facings, or knock out the aux from a healer) is one step.

Increasing the CD on subnuc and removing the extended CD from using skills is another step in balancing Sci space powers.

Eng I find is in a fairly good place. High power levels with decent heals in a fairly durable ship.

Anyways...
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 6
11-05-2011, 06:11 PM
OP, your describing cruisers online. I fly a cruiser that is a great healer and puts down steady dps. A cruiser is not designed to be a burst killing machine. If you think escorts are so unbalanced, try flying one for two weeks, then report back. Your dying because of your slow response time, and perhaps your build. If you would like to chat about it sometime, hit me up when you see me online. Id be more than happy to help.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Fairchilde
Real time combat and split second decisions are what make arena/pvping fun. Wow has it, Diablo 3 will have it, HoN has it, Fighting games have it. You are envisioning some turn-based or submarine style slowly thought out and carefully calculated style of combat, which is not the direction modern age pvp has evolved into.

This game already has been through the "healing wins all" and not enough damage being pumped out style of combat. Heck we are still there to a degree, with Subnuc being the only real good way to bust a double extends or double healing premade.

Slowing the PvP down is not the answer. Already can have 30 minute to an hour long premade matches with equally skilled teams.
Giving tac the ability to target subsystems with non-beam types (and shutting the systems down) vs non-tacs only being able to drain power from targetting subsystems (this gives tac the flexibility to punch through tss+extended shield facings, or knock out the aux from a healer) is one step.

Increasing the CD on subnuc and removing the extended CD from using skills is another step in balancing Sci space powers.

Eng I find is in a fairly good place. High power levels with decent heals in a fairly durable ship.

Anyways...
First off, snb does nothing to clear extend (though I believe it should if you use it on the ship throwing the extend)
Second, your kind of contradicting yourself in you post by saying the game is kind of slow as it is with snb being about the only thing to cut through healing, then saying that snb should have an increased c/d timer. I do agree with you about dropping the recharge timer debuff from it though
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 7
11-05-2011, 07:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fallout23 View Post
OP, your describing cruisers online. I fly a cruiser that is a great healer and puts down steady dps. A cruiser is not designed to be a burst killing machine. If you think escorts are so unbalanced, try flying one for two weeks, then report back. Your dying because of your slow response time, and perhaps your build. If you would like to chat about it sometime, hit me up when you see me online. Id be more than happy to help.




First off, snb does nothing to clear extend (though I believe it should if you use it on the ship throwing the extend)
Second, your kind of contradicting yourself in you post by saying the game is kind of slow as it is with snb being about the only thing to cut through healing, then saying that snb should have an increased c/d timer. I do agree with you about dropping the recharge timer debuff from it though
Well you can't just take one thing I said out of context, by itself nerfing just SnB would make games take longer (as it currently -is- the only viable way to kill a ship with competent healers. Extends is NOT the problem) Tacs need reactive ways to bring their targets down, and since escorts are pigeonholed into cannons for burst, they should give tacs a set of target subsystem skills that do what current TSS skills do (disable subsystems).

Then they should re-work the current beam-only TSS skills to simply drain power (but not disable) from the respective systems, so non-tacs can still contribute to bringing a target down.
SNB can deal with just the removal of the cd-increaser, but changing it from its current 2 min(?) cd to 3 puts it on the same kind of CD as Go Down Fighting, an arguably way less useful skill, and Miracle worker, which is a good but not game breaking skill.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 8
11-06-2011, 12:07 AM
this game would be so much more fun if healing and buffing was cut in half, durability and hit points were tripled, dps was doubled and and spike potential left the same. no one would be unkillable, no one would be 1 shoted, and ships would take damage, deal damage, and repair accurately to how things actually were in star trek. also do away with escort/cruiser/science, ships should be ships, they would be easy enough to stat with this engine without the artificial goal posts imposed on them

since im a lifer, im not leaving. i'll continue to complain until this game is recognizable as star trek, and as a result more fun. why do you think we are here cryptic? its for star trek, not generic mmo space and ground combat. i look at the game im playing in front of me and the only thing i recognize are the ships and the scenery.

ground gameplay is actually pretty good, and i don't consider it a drag to have to go through it any more. but space? you got almost every thing wrong. its unbalanced, unbalanceable, and the learning curve is impossibly high for 90% of players. not to mention in pve the level scaling npc battlships at all ranks, etc... stuff like that is just terrible.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 9
11-06-2011, 01:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fairchilde
Well you can't just take one thing I said out of context, by itself nerfing just SnB would make games take longer (as it currently -is- the only viable way to kill a ship with competent healers. Extends is NOT the problem) Tacs need reactive ways to bring their targets down, and since escorts are pigeonholed into cannons for burst, they should give tacs a set of target subsystem skills that do what current TSS skills do (disable subsystems).

Then they should re-work the current beam-only TSS skills to simply drain power (but not disable) from the respective systems, so non-tacs can still contribute to bringing a target down.
SNB can deal with just the removal of the cd-increaser, but changing it from its current 2 min(?) cd to 3 puts it on the same kind of CD as Go Down Fighting, an arguably way less useful skill, and Miracle worker, which is a good but not game breaking skill.
Well, Id have to disagree with extends not being a large part of the crazy healing balance. I am however finding it harder and harder to keep my extend on a target lately due to the amount of shockwaves flying around. I guess the positive thing about that is that it forces players to burn there stun on me.

To be honest, I don't think it's the healing numbers that are the issue, but rather the mitigation stacking of heals that is the issue. Either they should cut the damage mitigation in about half, or keep heals and mitigation abilities on different abilities. For instance, polarize hull should do mitigation like it does, and HE should just give a large hull heal with no mitigation. Make ppl choose between trying to heal through damage, or stop the damage from hitting with mitigation, but not BOTH in a single heal. Why is there no polarize shield type of ability? I'd even be ok with them taking HE and polarize hull off shared c/d if they took away HE's mitigation. If you want a hull heal WITH mitigation, make the healer burn two heals to do it. Same goes for shields with the addition of a shield mitigation ability.

I don't think your comparing apples to apples.
Snb=APA
Sensor scan=fire on my mark
Dampening field=go down fighting

Make no mistake, I believe sciences abilities are better than tac's, especially sensor scan compared to fire on my mark. I just think this a bit more accurate comparison
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 10
11-06-2011, 07:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gugeyewalker View Post
(I am probably going to try out Eve Online soon).
Rememebr for EVE.
Cans floating in secure space are cool- go ahead and grab those when you can.
Cans floating in 0-sec space are cool - go ahead and grab them.
and gate-campers are a myth.
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