Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
I'm sorry to say this, but they are. As someone who has been modding all kinds of games for years and has used all kinds of tools, I have to say that these are a big dissapointment.

They are very limited and feel more like "my babies first mission-maker tool" rather than an actual tool.

I experimented with every option, trying to find hidden menus and possibilities, but to no avail.
Something as basic as switching IFF or giving ships initial orders is not present. Setting up the strength of a opponent (trying to make a boss fight)? Non-existent.

Heck, Freespace 2's FRED editor makes this look like a school projects. And FS2 is a 13-year old game.
That is how you make a proper editor!
http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index...FRED_small.jpg
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/karajor...heating-01.jpg
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2
04-07-2012, 10:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soronarr View Post
I'm sorry to say this, but they are. As someone who has been modding all kinds of games for years and has used all kinds of tools, I have to say that these are a big dissapointment.

They are very limited and feel more like "my babies first mission-maker tool" rather than an actual tool.

I experimented with every option, trying to find hidden menus and possibilities, but to no avail.
Something as basic as switching IFF or giving ships initial orders is not present. Setting up the strength of a opponent (trying to make a boss fight)? Non-existent.

Heck, Freespace 2's FRED editor makes this look like a school projects. And FS2 is a 13-year old game.
That is how you make a proper editor!
http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index...FRED_small.jpg
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/karajor...heating-01.jpg
To be fair, they tried to design a tool that is easy to use. It's not as easy or intuitive as they think it is. But, they were trying to make something that didn't have the harsh learning curve of other modding engines.

I've modded for a long time as well. Some of those tools are really hard to learn. They were sort of trying to create a tool that everyone can use.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 3
04-07-2012, 10:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirkfat View Post
To be fair, they tried to design a tool that is easy to use. It's not as easy or intuitive as they think it is. But, they were trying to make something that didn't have the harsh learning curve of other modding engines.

I've modded for a long time as well. Some of those tools are really hard to learn. They were sort of trying to create a tool that everyone can use.
And they made a tool with which you can't do anything of any complexity without jumping trough a million hoops.. or not at all.
What an improvement!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 4
04-07-2012, 11:25 AM
there are a lot of editors that are so complex that most casual players would not have the first clue how to use them. you said yourself that you have spent years doing it on many games. you know what you are doing. most people dont. the foundry is designed for that type of player. its designed so anyone can pick it up and start making missions within a few hours.

there are also some factors they dont want you to play around with too much, as this is all happening on a live server. there are just some things they wont give you access to to make sure you dont start breaking things or exploiting loopholes. mods for offline games can have a little more freedom.

the tools could be easier to use at times and more in depth for those that want it, and there are improvements coming that will radically change the foundry.

but remember this is their first version of this tool. the foundry was not built for this game. it is being built for neverwinter. this was implemented as a test to iron out the problems for neverwinter, which they will then import back into sto at a later date. the current builds on nw will outstrip this version as they have learned what works and what does not.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 5
04-07-2012, 11:34 AM
Yea it's a let-down... But hey... after all it's just a data-mining tool for neverwinter
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 6
04-07-2012, 01:19 PM
The tools are very intuitive. However, keep in mind that they were designed with regular Cryptic missions in mind. Like:

Kill 0/5ships
Beam down
Interact 0/5 things
Kill 0/5 mobs
Beam up
Kill 0/5ships
"Congrats you saved the galaxy"

With the foundry, you can do a mission like this in less than 20 mins.
You can even shake up this mission design like this:

Kill 0/10 ships (Epic)
Beam down
Interact 0/25 things (So you feel important)
Kill 0/15 mobs (incl. 10 captain mobs for challenge)
Beam up
Kill 0/25ships (OH THE EPICNESS)
"Congrats you single handedly saved the galaxy from the Romulan-Klingon-Borg-Undine-Terran-Replicator-Q-Godlike hybrid creatures infused with Omega particle-Dark Matter-Higgs Boson-Midichlorian-Spinach that were out to conquer the Federation, kick your dog, eat all tribbles, reinstate the 5th dinasty and ask a ransom of ONE MILLION DOLLARS!"

And even that mission would take just 35 mins to make.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 7
04-07-2012, 04:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain_Revo
there are a lot of editors that are so complex that most casual players would not have the first clue how to use them. you said yourself that you have spent years doing it on many games. you know what you are doing. most people dont. the foundry is designed for that type of player. its designed so anyone can pick it up and start making missions within a few hours.
I've seen plenty of editors that are easy to use but difficult to master.
This one isn't difficult to master because there's really nothing to master.

I can only hope we get more options in the future, because this one is so limited it hurts...physicly.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 8
04-07-2012, 05:22 PM
I, too think that the foundry editor is a disappointment from the ground up. There are some OKish elements, but all in all, it is not good. Add to the insult that it's been in beta for like 18 months now. Cryptic said earlier that they can create an AAA title in 18 months. The foundry in its current shape is far from AAA, it is more like a hobby project.

However, to be absolutely fair, the foundry has some depth to it. Easy to use but difficult to find and master the workarounds. It is easy to use it as intended, to create a cookie cutter mission.

However, try to build a completely branched and parallelized mission with plenty of optionals and multiple endings + believable environment and ambient + custom interiors and/or enterable buildings. Believe it or not, you can do all that with the foundry but it is not easy.
You can't customize every single aspect of the enemy mobs, but you have tools there, too. You can reskin a weak space mob to show battleships, thus create an menancing looking battle group that is easy to pop. On the other hand, you can reskin a borg dreadnought to look like a runabout. Then you can call it a timeship because it packs a Cube's punch in a tiny package.

NPC scripting is absent, which is extremely painful in space, because that makes believable escort missions are all but impossible. It also makes the space part somewhat static and stale compared to the ground part, where you have workarounds.

So in case of the foundry, mastering means creating exactly what you want, using the small number of limited tools provided.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 9
04-07-2012, 05:56 PM
Quote:
This one isn't difficult to master because there's really nothing to master.
I have to disagree, when it comes to really doing some of the things that Pendra mentions. Item placement takes a ton of time and patience, and building complex sets requires a very experienced knowledge of what is and is not available as assets. Branching dialogue and branching stories, especially with complex triggers can make someone pull out their hair, especially when it comes to mastering the knowledge of how the bugs impact each thing that you try to do.

And, the learning curve isn't particularly easy and it is not as intuitive as somebody at Cryptic views it. A dev has to master it, and we've seen that one dev who has made a mission still has a few things to learn from the Foundry community, as far as polishing a mission.

But, if you're just wanting to create a Cryptic patrol that is pointless, then there is nothing to master.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 10
04-08-2012, 06:31 PM
I don't think anyone would argue that the Foundry tools leave a lot to be desired, but it's just not true that there's nothing to master, as Pendra80, among others, have demonstrated.

Even with poor tools, we're still able to accomplish some pretty powerful things.

I think you need to take the time to get to know the Foundry tools and "master" them before making statements that there is nothing to master or no point.

If you just said the Foundry tools were lacking in some areas, and thus required insane work around to accomplish things that should be simple then I'd have no disagreement with that.
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