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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
Am I the only one who's a bit bothered by the fact that the Federation seems perfectly happy handing out an Admiral's pips to an unrepentant murderer? That the "Tuvix incident" wasn't even mentioned by Starfleet after the Pathfinder programme established two-way comms? I mean, Author Author was a good episode, but for my money the first thing going on trial should have been Janeway.

I did try, really, as I quite like Voyager as a series and even Janeway has her moments, but I can't find the angle that makes the actions taken by the senior staff and Janeway in particular even remotely justifiable. If two crewmen died, then Q popped in for a visit and told Janeway that he'd bring them back to life if she kill a random stranger, I think she'd be rightly condemned for even considering such a proposition never mind acting on it, yet that's essentially what she did in this episode. And everyone bar the Doctor just seems to go along with it

I'm interested to see if anyone can show me a perspective on this ep I hadn't considered.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2
06-11-2012, 06:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sosolidshoe View Post
Am I the only one who's a bit bothered by the fact that the Federation seems perfectly happy handing out an Admiral's pips to an unrepentant murderer? That the "Tuvix incident" wasn't even mentioned by Starfleet after the Pathfinder programme established two-way comms? I mean, Author Author was a good episode, but for my money the first thing going on trial should have been Janeway.

I did try, really, as I quite like Voyager as a series and even Janeway has her moments, but I can't find the angle that makes the actions taken by the senior staff and Janeway in particular even remotely justifiable. If two crewmen died, then Q popped in for a visit and told Janeway that he'd bring them back to life if she kill a random stranger, I think she'd be rightly condemned for even considering such a proposition never mind acting on it, yet that's essentially what she did in this episode. And everyone bar the Doctor just seems to go along with it

I'm interested to see if anyone can show me a perspective on this ep I hadn't considered.
That is an interesting question, and one that would need a lot of thought.

Personally if i were the captain in that moment, i think i would have restored the two members using the transporter like Janeway did.

My reasoning is like this.

You’re keeping one life form alive that shouldn’t have even been created in the first place, being brought into being by accident, costing the lives and futures of two people, not including the impact on others lives . . friends and family.

It would be hard though, as the creation “Tuvix” would of course have the right to live . . but then so does Tuvok and Nelix . . although technically both still alive in the form of Tuvix, neither one truly themselves and robbed of individual life using Starfleet technology . . and since it’s forbidden to mess with the natural development or any culture . . i’m sure there is a rule about making you’re own new species with tech ?

If i were somehow merged into a combined being of two people, i’m very sure i’d have liked to be restored to my normal state so that i can carry on with my life. Would you ?

As Spock once said, the needs of the many outway the needs of the few . . . . Or the one.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 3
06-11-2012, 07:03 AM
You could say that Tuvix was not a natural person to begin with. It was a freak transporter accident, and they were simply restoring the natural order of things. Whereas in your analogy, that random person to be killed would be part of nature's natural balance.



Or, you could quote Spock: The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.


It's been a while since I've seen that ep, so I can't remember how much ehtical dilemma they played, but I bet there would have been some interesting discussions about the morality of this action if Seven was there.


EDIT: Awww, dangnabbit. I got ninja'd.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 4
06-11-2012, 07:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by grylak


EDIT: Awww, dangnabbit. I got ninja'd.
LOL . . sorry bud :-) . . but i'm happy you think the same . . i thought i was gonna get a ribbing for my opinion . . lol.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 5
06-11-2012, 07:16 AM
Voyager needed both Tuvok and Neelix in their separate roles, personally I don't Janeway had the luxury of being able to allow Tuvix to carry on in those circumstances. Had they been in the Alpha Quadrant it would've been different. Losing Tuvok and Neelix would have outweighed gaining Tuvix.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 6
06-11-2012, 07:35 AM
IF there had been a crisis in progress, putting at risk the ship and the crew, that only Tuvok (or Q forbid, Neelix) could possibly avert, then there might've been some justification for what Janeway did. But then, usually, when there's an imminent crisis that can be resolved with the death or turning over of one crewmember or passenger, Janeway refuses. As tend to do most Starfleet captains.

The Needs of the Many outweigh the Needs of the Few did not apply here. After Tuvix was created, Neelix and Tuvok no longer existed. They were effectively dead, and dead men have no needs. There was no imminent crisis. Just Kes blubbering over her loss of Neelix, and Janeway wanting her old friend back. They wanted their friends back and they were willing to sacrifice one for two while ordinarily they would never sacrifice anyone for anything. That entire crew should've been run out of the service the moment they returned to Earth. At least the command staff.

I can only assume they purged all records of the event.

Besides, even if NotMotNotF did fit, that rarely is enough justification to do anything. You're effective arguing Daugherty's case for relocating the Ba'ku. You're volunteering the guy who survives a shuttlecrash unscathed to give up his two kidneys, heart and liver to save the lives of four fellow passengers who were not so lucky, at the paltry cost of his one life, with platitudes like "not supposed to"...

You need more than arithmatic. The ship and crew, which would've included Tuvix, being at serious peril and requiring Tuvok or Neelix to save it would've been one of very few scenarios in which Janeway's behavior could be defended. Afterall, had she done nothing then, Tuvix would've died anyway, and all of them with him. Similarly, if Tuvix was only going to have a very short lifespan due to his two sets of DNA rejecting one another, a case could be made for this course of action. It didn't happen that way, however. This was just supposedly enlightened people (Roddenberry made quite a point about death not being an issue in the 24th century) unable to let go.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 7
06-11-2012, 07:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reave View Post
IF there had been a crisis in progress, putting at risk the ship and the crew, that only Tuvok (or Q forbid, Neelix) could possibly avert, then there might've been some justification for what Janeway did. But then, usually, when there's an imminent crisis that can be resolved with the death or turning over of one crewmember or passenger, Janeway refuses. As tend to do most Starfleet captains.

The Needs of the Many outweigh the Needs of the Few did not apply here. After Tuvix was created, Neelix and Tuvok no longer existed. They were effectively dead, and dead men have no needs. There was no imminent crisis. Just Kes blubbering over her loss of Neelix, and Janeway wanting her old friend back. They wanted their friends back and they were willing to sacrifice one for two while ordinarily they would never sacrifice anyone for anything. That entire crew should've been run out of the service the moment they returned to Earth. At least the command staff.

I can only assume they purged all records of the event.
Indeed, that was my reasoning. In addition, Janeway even explicitly states at one point that, in her mind, both Neelix and Tuvok were the sort of men who would gladly sacrifice themselves to save the life of another; now, she was using that in an attempt to shame Tuvix, but to my mind it only reinforces the wrongness of her actions; if they would be willing to give up their lives to save another, then it surely follows that they would not wish an innocent's life to be sacrificed in order that they may live.

As to the idea that Tuvix was not "natural", that doesn't hold up; for a start, whether he was natural or otherwise is irrelevant, he existed. The moment he materialised on that pad he was a sentient individual with a distinct personality, and at that point his life became every bit as valid as anyone else's. In addition, Janeway and other captains, Picard being one, have gone to bat on behalf of synthetic life forms on several occasions; Data, the Doctor, hell, even Exocomps. If Janeway can acknowledge the simple rational truth that a simulation as complex as the thing it simulates is essentially indistinguishable in an empirical sense, and thus the Doctor, simulation or no, is a sentient being, then there's no defense for her in the "nature" argument I fear.

As to purging records, that's the only way to explain away the lack of repercussions, but you would think Tuvok at least would have something to say on the subject.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 8
06-11-2012, 08:01 AM
So let me get this straight, if someone was brought into existence by accident, then it is moral and justifiable to kill them? This is regardless of whether they are sentient or not? They are not natural, they must be destroyed.

Kind of undermines the message of Star Trek, doesn't it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by nrobbiec
Voyager needed both Tuvok and Neelix in their separate roles, personally I don't Janeway had the luxury of being able to allow Tuvix to carry on in those circumstances. Had they been in the Alpha Quadrant it would've been different. Losing Tuvok and Neelix would have outweighed gaining Tuvix.
Tuvix got a grasp of security rather quickly. People liked him and he wasn't a pain to be around.

Voyager didn't need Neelix.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 9
06-11-2012, 08:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sosolidshoe View Post
As to purging records, that's the only way to explain away the lack of repercussions, but you would think Tuvok at least would have something to say on the subject.
Well yes, that's the part that doesn't quite mesh if it's a coverup on the end of the crew. Tuvok's pretty uncorruptably Vulcan about just about anything, and it's hard to believe this matter would be any different.

The alternative is Starfleet command brushing the incident under the rug. For whatever purpose. Perhaps they were so unnerved by the Borg that they really did want Janeway at the appropriate desk, and covered incidents like these up to pave the way. Or maybe it's the more overtly corrupt route, were the coverup might be admiral Paris' doing, as his son is part of the crew that would be implicated. (But since Tom didn't stay in Starfleet anyway, at least pre-temporal-shortcut, that shouldn't be necessary.)

Or maybe Voyager was written by sociopaths and the writers really thought this was the right resolution.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 10
06-11-2012, 08:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sosolidshoe View Post
Indeed, that was my reasoning. In addition, Janeway even explicitly states at one point that, in her mind, both Neelix and Tuvok were the sort of men who would gladly sacrifice themselves to save the life of another; now, she was using that in an attempt to shame Tuvix, but to my mind it only reinforces the wrongness of her actions; if they would be willing to give up their lives to save another, then it surely follows that they would not wish an innocent's life to be sacrificed in order that they may live.

As to the idea that Tuvix was not "natural", that doesn't hold up; for a start, whether he was natural or otherwise is irrelevant, he existed. The moment he materialised on that pad he was a sentient individual with a distinct personality, and at that point his life became every bit as valid as anyone else's. In addition, Janeway and other captains, Picard being one, have gone to bat on behalf of synthetic life forms on several occasions; Data, the Doctor, hell, even Exocomps. If Janeway can acknowledge the simple rational truth that a simulation as complex as the thing it simulates is essentially indistinguishable in an empirical sense, and thus the Doctor, simulation or no, is a sentient being, then there's no defense for her in the "nature" argument I fear.

As to purging records, that's the only way to explain away the lack of repercussions, but you would think Tuvok at least would have something to say on the subject.
Aahh, you see this is the dilemma that we face, i liked your argument involving Mr Data, exocomps, the holographic doctor and the like . . even those little nanites were granted sentient status.

If i’m honest, i wouldn’t want to get rid of Tuvix, and i did feel bad when he was taken away at the end of the episode . . as you say . . Picard may have given Tuvix the choice if he wanted to stay how he was or return to Tuvok & Nelix. Perhaps i would have asked him the question, but i would also consider that if it wasn’t for transported tech he wouldn’t be there at all, and i would have to consider the needs of the lost two crew members. So i’ve looked into the regulations to help.

General Order 1: "No starship may interfere with the normal development of any alien life or society."

Would merging 2 species with technology violate this regulation accident or not?

Starfleet Order 2: Starfleet regulation against the taking of intelligent life.

Perhaps this regulation rests your case, since even if Tuvix was an accident . . as captain i would have been forbidden to take his life since he’s quite obviously an intelligent life form. I think i’ve just sent myself to jail . . lol.

But i think i still would have brought both crew members back ??
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