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Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 8
I came back to this game for season 6, having last played at the end of the Season 5 FEs. My freinds and I have played STO on and off together since the beta, and we have a little fleet together. We've spent money on C-Store items in the past, season 6 has gotten us spending a bit more, and could keep us doing so.

But it won't.

I can't speak for our entire group, but I know I'm not alone in having gotten quite excited about the starbase. I never expected to have access to all the goodies right away, but I figured we could steadily play a couple of fights a night and slowly get somewhere. And at first that was the case! We've gotten three starbase upgrades completed and are still pushing for more. We've enjoyed all the new fleet content and have even revisited the STFs here and there. But as we tier up our starbase, the grind is exploding, and looks to continue to do so. Trying to scrape together the resources to do anything is becoming increasingly tedious, and entirely not fun.

The worst of it is the rewards for fleet advancement have so far been lack-luster. The promise that maybe the later gear will be better has thus far kept us going, but taking a look at what we've unlocked so far has really taken the wind out of my sails, and made me very strongly doubt that the designers know enough about what the players want to design a satisfying progression anymore, and looking at the fleet ships only reinforces this feeling. But that's only tangentially related to my main point, which I will get back to now.

One of the problems is the double curving of starbase experience. As you rank up a tier, the experience required to get to the next tier is greater than it was last time. That's not unusual, and it's not a huge problem. At the same time, the projects that yield that experience get more expensive. Either one of these facts alone would be fine, but together they combine to be absurd.

Even this wouldn't be the worst thing, but some of the commodities you have to feed in are insanely hard to grind up. To get to tier 1 in a category requires 179 common duty officers of that type. Getting to tier 2 from there needs 640 duty officers. Going from there to tier 3 takes over 2760 duty officers! How are we supposed to get that many of the guys? To advance even one step along the path we need a total of 120 duty officers. If we're doing all the recruitment missions at our disposal as fast as we can, continually logging in to see if the invisible cooldown timers are finished, I'd say we might get up to 1 duty officer of the right type per day per character. with ten characters that's still over a week before we can take one single step along the road. That's probably our best rate we can manage, unless we're furiously grinding energy credits to buy them off the exchange at every balloning prices. We have to do that 23 times to get to the tier 3 experince threshold. That's over nine months of CONSTANT GRIND. Even if we pay real money the return on investment is going to be so low that we'll have to spend a fortune to put any dent in that number.

I'm okay with the road being a long one, I really am, but this is absurd. From what I've read the enemy types are gated by starbase level, so we're not only cut off from the resources of a higher tier starbase, we're cut off from one of the things that MIGHT make the grind bearable, enemy variety. We are already sick to death of fighting klingons, gorn, and orions in the fleet events, and it's going to take us literally months of grind to unlock the next set?

Putting in item sinks for things that were piling up is great, but the effort to drain the economy of these overabundances has succeeded, and now attempting to continue at the same prices is terrible. And some of the requirements are terrible from the start. Practice Tactical Exercises II takes, if STOwiki is accurate, 100 photon torp MkIIIs. You need to run that mission 23 times if you're going for tier 3 without doing any provisioning. That is going to the vendor and buying the launcher, two clicks per torp, 2300 times. Yes, it's spread out over time and a fleet, but give me a break. My RSI is bad enough from my Pavlovian need to hammer spacebar even with autofire turned on, I don't need this too.

I don't really believe there's a chance of a price revamp here, but I'd be overjoyed to see one. While you're at it, you could make fleet leadership a bit more interesting. Make there be real tradeoffs in the advancement. For example, and I'm just spitballing here:

Lower the prices of all higher level category XP assignments, and if you feel that makes it too possible to ram down them for big fleets, raise the levelup thresholds. Add missions that allow you to advance faster down a track but are less resource efficient, especially in dilithium. Let people keep the progress they have, but change future progression.

The DOff prices are the biggest offenders though. If they're going to remain at their current curves, common DOffs have to be more easily attainable. For god's sake, if you're going to monetize this game to hell and back, just add C-store department themed doff packs that are guaranteed to give commons. I bet they'd sell like hotcakes.

TL;DR the explosive DOff grind is starting to kill my small fleet, and I expect it to do so for large fleets sooner or later.

Last edited by eatthepath; 08-01-2012 at 04:19 PM.
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,063
# 2
08-01-2012, 04:27 PM
when they said that small fleet will have a chance at leveling their base, I thought the requirements will be dependant on the fleet's membership count (but to my knowledge a 5 men fleet has to contribute the same stuff as a 500 men fleet).

also the problem is, that many stuff that is needed for the leveling of the starbase was not even that common before S6. while there are many things that we had a load of, and we still have, because we still cant spend it on starbases (for example the boff skillpoints -I dunno the new name-, all of us have millions of it, yet one lvl requires around 12000, maybe double of it...).

imo the prices should change, or at least should be tradeable (uncommon doffs should worth 2-3 common ones).
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 8
# 3
08-01-2012, 05:06 PM
I never expected prices to scale based on fleet size, and don't really want them to. The provisioning system already does that, and could be made to do so harder to slow down large fleets if that was desired.

We're told there are doff down-trading assignments coming. I think this is a band-aid, it'll help us for a little while and then our ships will be entirely abandoned and we'll be almost back where we started, except without anyone to do Doff assignments with, or only the barest skeleton crew.
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 353
# 4
08-02-2012, 04:16 AM
Have to agree a few adjustments are needed. Add FMs to all PvE/mission content, and for the love of god do something about the DOFF requirements. My fleet has had that 30 sensors/30 energy weapons assignment active (cant even trash the thing because there's no options to cancel an assignment or switch between active and queue'd) for over a week now. Sensors officers are getting just plain stupid on the exchange, over 1mil each. Most of my fleet has EC laying around, but we're just not willing to dump over 20mil for one part of one assignment.. we just assume sell the doffs and make more EC to buy stuff that's actually better than the fleet equipment.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,000
# 5
08-02-2012, 04:39 AM
I have to admit, the novelty has worn off now - the grind is tiresome.
Originally Posted by robdmc View Post
Remember, this place [Captain's Table] is so desolate that upon entering the Aenigma Nebula you will be prompted with a warp out box because the game thinks you flew there by mistake.

Last edited by reyan01; 08-03-2012 at 05:33 AM.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 231
# 6
08-02-2012, 04:49 AM
I'm really really struggling to keep motivated now. For the last half year or so, the only thing that kept me in STO was the DoFF system. I'm now finding that only a month into this season I'm just logging in to do my DoFF missions and nothing else. I enjoyed Nukara, but after doing it several times its just getting boring, the same as the other fleet mark events, there simply isn't enough variety to keep me interested in grinding these events back to back.

I think what is worse in all of this is that the items that you recieve from the fleet starbase system have been purposely designed NOT to be as good as STF loot. I persoanlly don't really enjoy the STF's (I've done them far too much with no luck getting gear) and thought that the fleet system would finally allow players to get decent gear that was comparable to STF's via the huge contributions we have to donate. To find out this is simply not the case has really put o huge downer on me, also the fact that you have to buy the items with fleet credits 'and' dilithium after all the donations to unlock them does not sit well with me either. I've basically emptied alot of my huge stockpile I've ammased since I started playing STO into the fleet starbase system and to be honest, the rewards just feel like a kick in the face for what players are expected to do. I want my Fleet Defiant (got the modules off the exchange for EC), but to be honest, I have no idea what I'll do with it once I have it, because I really can't be bothered with the current fleet mark grind events anymore. :-/

Ah well, SWTOR is going F2P soon, I might just head back over there :-/

My views are my own and may not represent those of Perfect World Entertainment
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 81
# 7
08-02-2012, 05:05 AM
I'm also disappointed by the uber grind required even in mid levels.
I can live with the increasing number of marks required and the increasing amount of experience required to get to higher tiers, but from what i see on Wiki and in my own fleet,
the amount of stuff that must be invested to get to the next tier quadruples with each tier.
so the trend 12(0)-30(1)-60(2) doffs per assignment will continue into up to 240 doffs per assignment at tier 5 and will require about 150 of those to get to tier 5. And doing the 500 XP missions that require more dilithium and less doffs also scales badly from what I see.

As a result it looks like that getting to tier 5 will be impossible for small fleets despite what the devs said. And in the end most bases will be developed up to tier 3 at most and then abandoned with the majority of players will join a few uber fleets so that about 500 players working together may be able to fully develop few bases into tier 5.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 216
# 8
08-02-2012, 08:10 AM
Originally Posted by fiberteksyfir View Post
Have to agree a few adjustments are needed. Add FMs to all PvE/mission content, and for the love of god do something about the DOFF requirements. My fleet has had that 30 sensors/30 energy weapons assignment active (cant even trash the thing because there's no options to cancel an assignment or switch between active and queue'd) for over a week now. Sensors officers are getting just plain stupid on the exchange, over 1mil each.
same here. my fleet of about 150 +/- has had that one as well for a while. cant scare up anymore doffs for those at the moment
we're halfway to tier 2 and assuming the wiki is correct about the increasing resource requirements, i dont think anyone is going to have anything left to advance the base any farther
what was it, 60-80k of just dil to station a single tac, sci, eng officer?

granted, in the series, a starbase would take some time to build (perhaps a year or 2, just a guess), but years in a game to grind out stuff. just insane

i would like to know who is making a killing from selling doffs on the exchange
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 11
# 9
08-02-2012, 10:44 AM
Originally Posted by qordaq View Post
Today, 06:10 AM

This is an interesting topic. One of the things I get from the various (frustrated) replies in this thread is that people have been waiting for Starbases to be a total game-changer and allow players to switch focus to this new game-play type.

We saw this with DOffs as well. We have been so starved for new content in this game that when something really entertaining gets added we throw all of our effort into doing it because, let's face it, we've done everything else already.

This is not surprising of course, because as stated, the content droughts of the past have been long and grueling periods of "Hurry up and wait" for the next big thing.

The problem with this approach is that it leads to burnout.

The Starbase system (as well as the DOffs for that matter) need to be taken as pieces, awesome pieces, of a much larger whole that has not been entirely realized yet. In other words one more thing to do in the game rather than "The" thing to do in the game.

That's asking a lot of us as players, frankly, and especially as long as we have had to wait for compelling new features and game-play options in the not so distant past.

However, we have seen Cryptic step-up their game since F2P has launched. Some of that has been hard to swallow because of the focus on micro-transactions, lock boxes, time-gating, and so on, but we have also seen an awful lot of work go into revamping almost every aspect of the game, and continued discussion on plans to revamp the rest.

If Cryptic can keep up the pace for another 3-4 seasons, that will mean a truly expansive game with many different types of game-play to rotate through.

Coming from that longer-view perspective, maxing out DOffs, fully kitting out with STF gear, or unlocking Tier 5 of a Starbase, can be seen as a range of different ways to play the game over an extended period of time.

I interact with new (and returning) players frequently, and those that are just coming into the game for the first time (or have not played in a year or more) are often floored and even a little overwhelmed by the magnitude of optional things to do.

So yes, grinding any single aspect of STO will get tedious and expensive, and, as mentioned, can lead to burn out and frustration, but each one of us has the choice to throw ourselves into that cycle--or not to.

Even now, a semi-regular player (say six or so hours a week), can log in and find a variety of different types of content to play with. If all six of those hours are spent doing exactly the same thing, then the challenges of maxing out that one focus will be painful. On the other hand, spending that time doing a range of activities may mean slower progress in each, but in the long run may prove more satisfying.

I freely admit that I have, at times, been caught up in the excitement and expectation of having something new to do as additional content gets rolled out, but I have typically had to pace myself because of real-world responsibilities and obligations as well. The result is that I am NOT a master of any one particular aspect of STO (believe me you don't want me on your PvP or elite STF team), but I have also been continuously playing since open Beta and have yet to burn out.

I see Starbases in the same light. I am a member of a large, well organized Fleet (12th Fleet), so some of our progress-related pains get spread out over a large number of members. But I also have alts in a private fleet, as well as in our Alt-fleets, and I know that progress there is going to be very slow.

If the pay-out for achieving the maximum Tier of a Starbase seems to be underwhelming (and currently it is), perhaps it is worth simply stepping back and looking at it from another perspective. STO is not about Starbases. Starbases just happen to be one of the various things to do within the larger scope of the game.

I think Cryptic knows this, and is banking on players consuming it in small doses over the long haul, rather than racing through it all at once... In fact various Devs have been saying as much from the earliest mention of Season 6.

Are Starbases a cool new toy? Yup. Are they going to be ridiculously challenging to max out? Yup. Are they meant to be the pinnacle and final piece of the puzzle which makes STO complete... I don't think so. I'd go even further, and say that two years down the road, many of us will be continuing to plug away at building our homes in STO, while focusing on many other aspects of the game.

Some of those other aspects will, hopefully, be entertaining in their own rights.

When viewed in this light, I feel that, in time; Starbases, STFs, DOffs, and any number of other (as yet unimplemented) types of content, will ultimately serve to make the overall Star Trek Online gaming experience very diverse and engaging... We simply are not quite there yet. However, to be fair, we have never before seen this level of development-related momentum happening in STO either.

cha' DarSeqwij (My two Darseks)...
Previously: QorDaq
Forum Member Since: Maybe Aug 2009, likely earlier. Never wrote the date down... We should have been warned!
** Signed **

Last edited by amavar; 08-02-2012 at 10:47 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 125
# 10
08-18-2012, 04:46 PM
Originally Posted by eatthepath View Post
I never expected prices to scale based on fleet size, and don't really want them to. The provisioning system already does that, and could be made to do so harder to slow down large fleets if that was desired.

We're told there are doff down-trading assignments coming. I think this is a band-aid, it'll help us for a little while and then our ships will be entirely abandoned and we'll be almost back where we started, except without anyone to do Doff assignments with, or only the barest skeleton crew.
There are doff down trading assignments and let me tell you it's retarded. I spent 3 hours trying to down trade some green doffs so i could get, you guessed it sensor officers. I got 1 freakin sensor officer!!!! ONE. Oh but i got an abundance of worthless crap. Bartenders, advisors, freakin counselor trois, you know stuff that costs 10,000 ec on the exchange because they're worthless as teets on a bull for fleet missions. I'm furious at PWE. This is a shameless greedy money grab and it will be the death of this game. I think Gene Roddenberry's wife should step in and make sure any future projects attached to the Star Trek name are refused if they blatently rip off the fans. What a shameful tarnish on the Star Trek franchise this is.

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