Lieutenant
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 33
Timers have completely destroyed the usefulness of cruisers and sci vessels (especially anything in T5), hell even the Odyssey for that matter. Seems like the Dreadnought Cruiser can still hang but that is about it on the cruiser line. Sure it is okay to get 1 cruiser/sci/T5 (unless it is an escort) but that is about it. Get any more cruisers in there and you won't beat the timer with normal players. Timers seriously need to be looked at. The last match I was in there were 2 Odyssey's, 1 sov and 2 escorts and we still couldn't beat the timer. This was on Federation Fleet Alert. The match before last same issue except there were two Sovereigns and 1 Sci, two escorts and we didn't win it. Got back in my escorted, dropped into a match that ended up with 3 escorts, 1 Odyssey and 1 Dreadnought, we still only beat the timer by 45 seconds. Yesterday 4 escorts ruled it missing 1 player who dropped when we started. I have been noticing this more and more, when I see more then 1 cruiser I am betting we can't win since 2 seem to be pushing it. Any more then 2 and it is almost 100% assured it is going to be a fail. Not sure if the cruiser just needs it's dps upped or if the timer needs to be pushed out longer but something needs to be done.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 772
# 2
08-06-2012, 08:38 PM
While a good cruiser won't do as much damage as a good escort, a good cruiser will still do more than enough damage to finish a a starbase defense.

And a well setup science vessel is invaluable, though having 4 or 5 might be a bit off. But having 4 or 5 of any one type is a bit unbalanced.
Ainu - Join Date: Aug 2008
Foundry Missions: 1) The Source of Power (ST-HSWUBD5TQ) [Federation] 16+
-----=====*****<[ Fleet Recruitment Thread ]>*****=====-----
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 369
# 3
08-06-2012, 09:16 PM
The way I see it (slightly off topic) When you get a base to T5 and looking for that T5 Starbase Cruiser... You get an Oddy... Not just any Oddy, the Star Oddy. IMHO It is an ehh... The Dreadnought is the only T5 Ship that can somewhat compete with Fleet Ships.

Now if it was to get a Fleet Version... Hint Hint... With an extra slot that comes with the Saucer/ Shotgun Lance? Can you say ownage? Make it for T5 Starbase? I will pay the price of 5 Oddies for that. Or just an upgraded Version of the Dread...
The Average PvP player

1) Teamwork and timing is #1
2) You cannot "Kirk It" in every ship
3) You are going to die, just get back up
Lieutenant
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 33
# 4
08-06-2012, 09:52 PM
Just slightly off topic starcommando

Quote:
While a good cruiser won't do as much damage as a good escort, a good cruiser will still do more than enough damage to finish a a starbase defense.

And a well setup science vessel is invaluable, though having 4 or 5 might be a bit off. But having 4 or 5 of any one type is a bit unbalanced.
What is a good cruiser?

Sci vessels are useless, seems carriers are the new Sci vessels. I never see a need for them in Elite and above.

3 cruisers and 2 escorts should be more then enough to finish an Elite STF or Federation Fleet Alert. Right now timers are forcing 3 or more escorts into every match. With 4 escorts and 1 cruiser you can dominate any Elite STF or Fleet Starbase mission. 5 Escorts can dominate most things. My fleet is now telling newer players to go Escort at T5 or they won't be getting into many of our fleet events since 2 cruisers in an event is a waist of time. Only exception to the escort rule is if you go carrier. Most players want to play a cruiser and they are not able to. Cruisers should be the mainstay of a Fed fleet but they no longer are.

Now I am not in a fleet cruiser yet but it looks like they are ramping up the Elite STF's and Fleet events to get ready for the fleet ships. Ramp up what you have now that way you don't have to make new STF's or missions. Not saying that is what they are doing but if I wanted to go cheap that is how I would do it....
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 232
# 5
08-06-2012, 10:32 PM
Actually both sci and cruisers are perfectly fine ... what's lacking are the captains.

Anectodal evidence to illustrate: 'been flying around on my fresh VA Eng today, in a MAC (nice ship, and supercheap on exchange, 'allowed me to spent my RA token on a RSV instead, basically 120k dil saved at less than 1M EC), still with pretty much all green Mk X items that I got her from exhange at level 40. No borg console yet, no active duty DOffs, just the basic BOff-layout. As I wanted to see how well my build worked and how far I am from STF-readiness, I had DPS-meter running.
'Got three Borg Red Alerts on my tour. Perfect opportunities to test. Each time, there was an Oddy in there, too, last one even a Tac in Tac Oddy.
Result: I out-dps'ed the first two Oddys by 50%, and the Tac by 20%. And of course tanked everything just fine, as that's what the ship is build for.
Right, I out-dps'ed THEM! In a crappy geared simple T5 ship. Versus geared C-Store ships. 20-50%!
In fact, I out-dps'ed everyone in all three encounters, even two VA Escorts.
That simply should not happen.
But it tells you what's really wrong with cruisers.

As for Science Vessels ... you're kiddin me, right? SVs, if build well, deal nearly as much damage as a cruiser, and they can buff the whole group's dps by a huge amounts with a well-placed Grav-well (setting up for AoE) or Tiken's (draining shields to non-existence).
But, again: this takes a bit of skill. If done wrong, you're indeed useless - a well played SV though can keep itself alive forever in PvE, carry its share of dps AND boost group dps.
Everything, but not useless!

It's just a lot harder to totally screw up a Tac/Escort build - but, as already mentioned above, far from impossible.


'Doesn't mean that having more than one SV and Cruiser each is optimal, though. One cruiser that tanks is better than another Escort ... the second cruiser though WILL result in a loss of group effiency. The first SV buffs group dps further than you'd get by having another escort ... the second though reduces the damage to be buffed by more than the second set of debuffs makes up for.
... though that doesn't mean either that this makes PvE content impossible. Even 2 Cruisers and 3 SV can breeze through content, if they're played right. In fact, they'll still beat 5 Escorts that chain-explode as they lack a tank, which is quite a common sight, too.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 191
# 6
08-06-2012, 10:49 PM
Sorry, I love cruisers, and wasted so much actual money buyng them. But, the fact is a newb in an escort beats a newb in a cruiser as a wignman in elite missions/fleet missions.

My last pug was 5 escorts, and there was no need for a 10% rule on ISE, We blew everything in record time and it was over ridiculously fast. 1 Patrol escort, 1 MVAE, 2 Defiants, and a Raptor.

Take the same situation only make it 5 cruisers, which Ive done before in a pug, and forget making the optional, just pray you'll actually finish sometime that day. lol

That is the problem. An escort makes the difference no matter what group your with, no matter the number in the group, 1,2,3,4,5.
A cruiser or Sci ship. not the same can be said.

I see STO's current state as being ruled by Escorts and Carriers. The Armitage is the perfect Hybrid, that I have yet to buy, but will soon. I run 3 toons and wanted them all to play diferrently, but thats just adding to the grind by sticking them in a ship other then a EScort or Carrier.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,241
# 7
08-07-2012, 08:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by armax View Post
Timers have completely destroyed the usefulness of cruisers and sci vessels (especially anything in T5), hell even the Odyssey for that matter. Seems like the Dreadnought Cruiser can still hang but that is about it on the cruiser line. Sure it is okay to get 1 cruiser/sci/T5 (unless it is an escort) but that is about it. Get any more cruisers in there and you won't beat the timer with normal players. Timers seriously need to be looked at. The last match I was in there were 2 Odyssey's, 1 sov and 2 escorts and we still couldn't beat the timer. This was on Federation Fleet Alert. The match before last same issue except there were two Sovereigns and 1 Sci, two escorts and we didn't win it. Got back in my escorted, dropped into a match that ended up with 3 escorts, 1 Odyssey and 1 Dreadnought, we still only beat the timer by 45 seconds. Yesterday 4 escorts ruled it missing 1 player who dropped when we started. I have been noticing this more and more, when I see more then 1 cruiser I am betting we can't win since 2 seem to be pushing it. Any more then 2 and it is almost 100% assured it is going to be a fail. Not sure if the cruiser just needs it's dps upped or if the timer needs to be pushed out longer but something needs to be done.
The sad reality of the game is that ever since it went to F2P all the complexity of science and engineering went down the toilet as the devs made the game into a stupid dps-centric experience.

Before F2P a science ship could kill with science as well as an escort did with weapons. Cruisers were masters of engineering skills and were incredible tanks and damage dealers. Escorts were the burst damage/positional damage ships... they did nowhere the amount of damage they do now but instead had the speed and maneuverability to attack a shield facing and keep hitting it hard and kill.

Now... with the DPS-centric changes... escorts rule over everything. They get the absolute best defenses, best damage, best speed, best everything except shield and hull stats...which is neigh since death means very little and escorts who keep up their speed and tac abilities active simply don't die.

The game will not go back to having a clear role for science ships and cruisers. Its a F2P game and the only thing they care about is selling garbage on the zen store. Garbage is easier sold to dps-centric players.
http://media.tumblr.com/160cacdb395f8340dac90864182ebe16/tumblr_inline_mx9yxhItkb1qg9pkt.jpg
Ensign
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1
# 8
08-07-2012, 09:04 AM
Quote:
Now... with the DPS-centric changes...
It is not a change, it is just the base of STO combat system like you can see it in all the MMO.

When a target have the same potentiel in combat with 100 % of his HP (or structure points or other things like this) and 1 % of his HP : the only way that count is DPS. You have to kill it quick, absolutly no interest to have a target exhausted or something like that cause it can deal 100 % of his potential damage.

Scientists are useless cause :
- a team of 4 tactics and 1 scientist dont deliver more DPS than a team of 5 tactics (in fact the first team deliver less).
- 4 tactics in a team dont survive more with the help of 1 scientist cause tactics can survive by themselve.

Cruiser are useless cause :
- the system is based on DPS and a cruiser dont play in that register.
- an escort is actualy better to survive in a fight than a cruiser cause of defense stat that rules the game and the movement capacities and escape capacities of the escort.

If you want to see some change you have to think a new game where :
- the better escort never survive longer that the worst cruiser. In fact it is harder to sink a carrier than a zodiac except in STO world.
- make cruiser what they are : a weapon plateform who can be adapted in combat to their target and can supportb a long fight.
- make escort what they are : little ship who can deliver good damage if they are in number (not alone or in duo) ; not adaptative and unable to support a long fight.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 33
# 9
08-07-2012, 11:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by oweth View Post
It is not a change, it is just the base of STO combat system like you can see it in all the MMO.

When a target have the same potentiel in combat with 100 % of his HP (or structure points or other things like this) and 1 % of his HP : the only way that count is DPS. You have to kill it quick, absolutly no interest to have a target exhausted or something like that cause it can deal 100 % of his potential damage.

Scientists are useless cause :
- a team of 4 tactics and 1 scientist dont deliver more DPS than a team of 5 tactics (in fact the first team deliver less).
- 4 tactics in a team dont survive more with the help of 1 scientist cause tactics can survive by themselve.

Cruiser are useless cause :
- the system is based on DPS and a cruiser dont play in that register.
- an escort is actualy better to survive in a fight than a cruiser cause of defense stat that rules the game and the movement capacities and escape capacities of the escort.

If you want to see some change you have to think a new game where :
- the better escort never survive longer that the worst cruiser. In fact it is harder to sink a carrier than a zodiac except in STO world.
- make cruiser what they are : a weapon plateform who can be adapted in combat to their target and can supportb a long fight.
- make escort what they are : little ship who can deliver good damage if they are in number (not alone or in duo) ; not adaptative and unable to support a long fight.
This seems to be a better explanation to my point. DPS is king in all STFs and fleet missions. The timer is a problem. You have to kill fast and move on or lose. That is all I am trying to say here. 1 cruiser is good but u get 2 or 3 and the DPS just isn't enough to complete the goals. They need to relax on the timer some so Cruisers and SCI ships with lower dps are not a hinderance but a blessing. It really isn't about the balance of each ship. I do not think escorts are overpowered. and someone else said it, 5 carriers rock in any STF or fleet mission. Nothing better then ending up in a group with all carriers. I love it! but it rarely happens.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,755
# 10
08-11-2012, 11:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by armax View Post
Timers have completely destroyed the usefulness of cruisers and sci vessels (especially anything in T5), hell even the Odyssey for that matter. Seems like the Dreadnought Cruiser can still hang but that is about it on the cruiser line. Sure it is okay to get 1 cruiser/sci/T5 (unless it is an escort) but that is about it. Get any more cruisers in there and you won't beat the timer with normal players. Timers seriously need to be looked at. The last match I was in there were 2 Odyssey's, 1 sov and 2 escorts and we still couldn't beat the timer. This was on Federation Fleet Alert. The match before last same issue except there were two Sovereigns and 1 Sci, two escorts and we didn't win it. Got back in my escorted, dropped into a match that ended up with 3 escorts, 1 Odyssey and 1 Dreadnought, we still only beat the timer by 45 seconds. Yesterday 4 escorts ruled it missing 1 player who dropped when we started. I have been noticing this more and more, when I see more then 1 cruiser I am betting we can't win since 2 seem to be pushing it. Any more then 2 and it is almost 100% assured it is going to be a fail. Not sure if the cruiser just needs it's dps upped or if the timer needs to be pushed out longer but something needs to be done.

If the enemy targeted and fired at any ship at
Range 10 or less this would not be a problem
And would solve many other problems. A enemy battleship
Or base just allowing Tacs to use there Dps at
Will as I see it is the biggest problem I'n the game.
Jellico....Engineer.....Stargazer KDF Tac
Saphire.. Science.....Ko'el Rom Kdf Tac
Leva........Tactical.....Mailu KDF Sci

JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:39 AM.