Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 598
# 1 Firepower Balance
09-27-2012, 05:24 PM
The reason why alot of cruisers can't compete in PVP and PVE with escorts is because the devs are bent of making escorts do everything and be all around better ships. If thats not the case, then why are almost every new ship that they come out with are escorts and armed with cannons? Why is it that torpedos, being the cruiser's most powerful weapon, does little to nothing to shields? Cruisers on the Fed side can't arm heavy cannons like they can on the Klingon side.

To balance out things and slow the drive of everyone rushing to get an escort to use in PVP, they need to either bring up the damage level of beams or bring down the damage level in heavy cannons. There is no guide or manual saying that cannons are better than beams. In Memory Alpha say the the disruptor cannons have more energy then standard phaser banks but took longer to recharge. Standerd phasers in that time were Type 8, while the Galaxy class was armed with Type X and Sovereign was armed with type XII. Those later mentioned phasers were not standard and were mostly on the new most important ships. Now that this is the 25th Century, most ships with the phaser strips would be using type X or type XII phaser arrays. With that being said, the power outputs for cannons and beams should be the same and the damage should be the same. That would make more ships in this game more even, especially in pvp. Lets see if the Devs are really interested in the balance of the game or are they just blowing smoke up everyone's ass.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 216
# 2
09-27-2012, 06:22 PM
There have only been 6 Escorts released...
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,553
# 3
09-27-2012, 06:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by veraticus View Post
There have only been 6 Escorts released...

Which doesn't change the fact that they still have much higher damage output which will still annoy OP. But we've gone over this. MANY TIMES. Escorts are SUPPOSED TO HAVE HIGH DPS. THAT'S THEIR JOB. The main problem is how much survivability they have. They have too much of that. If you reduced survivability on them, THEN that would balance them out. An escort should not be able to tank much if anything at all. But they can. So that's where they are broken.

I mean at least they got it right with the BoP, HUGE burst damage, but made of tinfoil (no offense to any BoP pilots reading this, but you probably know what I mean).
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Tired of Wasting EC and Time trying to get Superior Romulan Operative BOffs? Here's a cheap and easy way to get them, with an almost 100% chance of success.
Why the Devs can't make PvE content harder.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 216
# 4
09-27-2012, 09:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hereticknight085 View Post

Which doesn't change the fact that they still have much higher damage output which will still annoy OP. But we've gone over this. MANY TIMES. Escorts are SUPPOSED TO HAVE HIGH DPS. THAT'S THEIR JOB. The main problem is how much survivability they have. They have too much of that. If you reduced survivability on them, THEN that would balance them out. An escort should not be able to tank much if anything at all. But they can. So that's where they are broken.

I mean at least they got it right with the BoP, HUGE burst damage, but made of tinfoil (no offense to any BoP pilots reading this, but you probably know what I mean).
That is not the point of an Escort.
The Defiant for example carries an extreme payload... for its size.

In starship classification, an escort vessel was a starship whose primary purpose is to accompany other vessels as a means of protection. Escorts typically protected lesser armed vessels, or vessels carrying an important cargo. (From Memory Alpha)

In starship classification, a warship or war vessel was a generic term for any armed starship designed for combat. These vessels included battleships, battle cruisers, various sized cruisers, escorts, and destroyers. (Also from Memory Alpha)

Since Starfleet usually uses other "non-violent" terminology to describe their ships, I thought I would include both the Escort and Warship definitions as Star Trek has classified their meaning.

I will now do the same with Cruisers.

In starship classification, battleships were a type of large and powerful warship. In traditional terms, battleships were the most powerfully armed and most heavily armored warships of their era. It is likely that the definition was still true among starships, although standards may have varied by species and technological level.
Starfleet often referred to Jem'Hadar battle cruisers as battleships. (DS9: "Ties of Blood and Water")

The Defiant-class was sometimes referred to as a battleship. (VOY: "Drone")

Satarran agent Keiran MacDuff believed that the Galaxy-class USS Enterprise-D was a battleship, based on her specifications. (TNG: "Conundrum")

In some alternate timelines, Federation Galaxy-class starships were referred to as battleships. (TNG: "Yesterday's Enterprise", "All Good Things...")

Yes the Defiant is mentioned as a Battleship, it was also in Voyager... but its also 3 to1 in favor of the Galaxy class.
Dismissing Voyager, it was the desire of some behind the scenes when creating the Defiant for DS9 that it be a "pocket battleship"

In traditional terminology, a battle cruiser was any large armed cruiser (or warship) with battleship armament, that carried lighter armor than a battleship.
In starship classification, the term battle cruiser was sometimes used synonymously with heavy cruiser. The Klingons once referred to the Federation Constitution-class USS Enterprise as a battle cruiser. (Star Trek III: The Search for Spock)


So even going strictly by what is said, mentioned and seen on screen through all of Star Trek. Something that the original developers said they were trying to stick close to in order to maintain a semblance of easily recognizable features and functions... they have failed miserably.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,750
# 5
09-28-2012, 02:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hereticknight085 View Post

WEscorts are SUPPOSED TO HAVE HIGH DPS. THAT'S THEIR JOB. The main problem is how much survivability they have. They have too much of that. If you reduced survivability on them, THEN that would balance them out. An escort should not be able to tank much if anything at all.
You really need to move beyond the classic trinity. Escorts are not glass canons, Cruisers are not impossible to destroy tanks that can't hurt a fly, and science vessels aren't healbots! They are ALL meant to be HYBRIDS, each favoring certain things over others.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,241
# 6
09-28-2012, 03:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by skyranger1414 View Post
You really need to move beyond the classic trinity. Escorts are not glass canons, Cruisers are not impossible to destroy tanks that can't hurt a fly, and science vessels aren't healbots! They are ALL meant to be HYBRIDS, each favoring certain things over others.
THIS is what we are asking for!

However Cryptic don't listen and escort pilots tell us where to go, it would seem casual players have no business playing as they can't be bothered to find the perfect build, they just want to pick a ship that they like and blow stuff up, which pre season 6 they could, why shouldn't we be able to do this?
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,241
# 7
09-28-2012, 03:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hereticknight085 View Post

Which doesn't change the fact that they still have much higher damage output which will still annoy OP. But we've gone over this. MANY TIMES. Escorts are SUPPOSED TO HAVE HIGH DPS. THAT'S THEIR JOB. The main problem is how much survivability they have. They have too much of that. If you reduced survivability on them, THEN that would balance them out. An escort should not be able to tank much if anything at all. But they can. So that's where they are broken.

I mean at least they got it right with the BoP, HUGE burst damage, but made of tinfoil (no offense to any BoP pilots reading this, but you probably know what I mean).

Remove the defense bonus and tractor immunity from attack pattern omega and you'll see a dramatic shift in escort uberness.

You know, as they were pre-f2p when escorts did not have this idiotic amount of defenses. They were highly maneuverable, fast, burst dps ships but neither their damage was not that much higher than a full beam cruiser firing broadside nor could it tank..at all. Its main strength was that it could maneuver and always hit the weakest shield. Back then battles were a lot more about maneuvering than about hitting the I-win-DPS key over and over again.
http://media.tumblr.com/160cacdb395f8340dac90864182ebe16/tumblr_inline_mx9yxhItkb1qg9pkt.jpg
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,241
# 8
09-28-2012, 04:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmdrskyfaller View Post
You know, as they were pre-f2p when escorts did not have this idiotic amount of defenses. They were highly maneuverable, fast, burst dps ships but neither their damage was not that much higher than a full beam cruiser firing broadside nor could it tank..at all. Its main strength was that it could maneuver and always hit the weakest shield. Back then battles were a lot more about maneuvering than about hitting the I-win-DPS key over and over again.
This was also true for a short period of time post F2P going live and frankly I LOVED it back then it was better than I had expected, even when I hit VA it was still good nicely balanced with no ship doing too much more damage than any other because it was less about the build and more about how the player USED the build they had and as a result I personally thing the game and the players of the game were better than they are now with less escorts in PvE (effectively) saying to the team "relax, I got this" and more looking at their team and saying "Hey, you wanna gimme a hand here?"

Back then team members talked to one another, worked on their strengths and made up for each-others weaknesses, now you fly into an STF, count the escorts and assess from that the level of success you're going to have, with the current system nine times out of ten if you son't have 2 escorts in CSE (1 to guard the Kang and one to kill nanite probes and cubes) you aren't gonna get the optional.

I say lets go back to the old days when people were friendlier in game because they needed one another's help to bring down a big target but at the same time everyone was able (emphasis there-upon) to solo pretty much anything in the game if you cared enough to perfect the ship build, otherwise you still had the ability to look after yourself and ask for a hand if you needed it
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 598
# 9
09-27-2012, 09:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by veraticus View Post
There have only been 6 Escorts released...
You forgot about the lockbox shipa which are mostly escorts: D'kora, Jem'Hadar Attack Ship, Orb Weaver, Wells Class, Mobius Class, Korath Class, Krenn Class, and A Qin Raptor. Thats a hell of alot more escorts than cruiser coming out as of recent. The new assault cruiser is the only new cruiser on the that has come out.

For as the other statement about escorts supposed to be more powerful, there is no manual or canon material that says so. Don't be so caught up in the BS that Cryptic feeds you because they are not feeding you with information from any Star Trek canon site. They are making up stuff as they go along just because they are the Devs. I have read the sites on cannons and phaser banks and arrays. I have read sites on the smaller attack ships and the regular cruisers.

"In starship classification, an escort vessel was a starship whose primary purpose is to accompany other vessels as a means of protection. Escorts typically protected lesser armed vessels, or vessels carrying an important cargo.

In 2154, Degra's ship was protected by two Xindi-Reptilian warships, which served as escort ships, during the proving ground Xindi superweapon prototype test mission in the Calindra system. (ENT: "Proving Ground")

In 2368, a radical faction based on the Beta moon of Peliar Zel intercepted the Federation shuttlecraft Hawking claiming to be an escort vessel. (TNG: "The Host")

The Defiant-class, originally developed to counter the Borg, is officially classified as an escort vessel, but was unofficially a warship. (DS9: "The Search, Part I")."

Ref:http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Escort_vessel
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,442
# 10
09-27-2012, 11:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexindcobra View Post
You forgot about the lockbox shipa which are mostly escorts: D'kora, Jem'Hadar Attack Ship, Orb Weaver, Wells Class, Mobius Class, Korath Class, Krenn Class, and A Qin Raptor. Thats a hell of alot more escorts than cruiser coming out as of recent. The new assault cruiser is the only new cruiser on the that has come out.
Erm, the D'Kora is a battlecruiser that can mount dual cannons, if I remember right. It's pretty similar to the Klingon battlecruisers at that, with a turn rate of just 8.(I don't know about battle mode, though.) As for the rest, the Orb Weaver, Wells Class and Korath Class are science ships that can't mount dual cannons. Also, the Qin Raptor is barely any different from the stock one that you get at level 40. I don't think it really counts.

Therefore, the only escorts that have come out in lockboxes are the JHAS and the two Temporal Destroyers.

Nevertheless, I think that escorts tank a little too well to be called squishy. I think it's mainly due to Tactical Team and speed tanking.

Last edited by scurry5; 09-27-2012 at 11:13 PM.
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:01 AM.