Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,683
There's no documentation I found anywhere aside from people not liking it or a few tests where it seems to perform well. The wikis just say it does +X damage. Well, I noticed that "X" is different on different weapons and non-existent on some.

My theory is this:

Each Dmg mod adds 2% to the base DPS of a ship weapon.

There are several important caveats here: That is NOT DAMAGE per strike or "Damage per Volt" (DPV). Also note that mark and rarity affect base damage.

So weapons that do not have a stored DPS rating (like mines and torpedos) receive no benefit. They have damage but it isn't per second.

Also, I believe a purple Mk XII weapon has higher base DPS than a blue Mk XII weapon or a purple Mk XI. More base DPS means a higher benefit from Dmg.

See... My theory is that Dmg may be the BEST PvE modifier on Dual Heavy Cannons, followed by Dual Cannons, followed by Single Cannons, followed by Dual Beams.

It would be awful for turrets and most beams and useless for mines and torpedos.

Part of the idea here may be my suspicion that instead of multiplying damage by rate of fire to achieve DPS in STO, STO starts with DPS and filters through cooldown to determine damage per strike on all non-mine and torpedo weapons.

So fast weapons do better and higher damage weapons do better and weapons that are both fast and high damage derive exponentially more benefit from a Dmg mod.

I think maybe this has gone mostly unnoticed because people aren't fully distinguishing the value of different mods to different weapons and because I can't find a theory of what Dmg is even supposed to do so people have been acting like its value is constant across weapon type.

This is somewhat understandable because a Blue Mk XII beam or cannon gets the same benefit from CritH over time and a Blue Mk XII CritHx2 weapon gets the same crit boost as a Purple CritHx2 Acc weapon, assuming no accuracy bleedover.

However, I'm suggesting that Dmg is highly multiplicative and, further, that cannons get more boost than beams over time and that a Purple Mk XII Dmgx2 Acc weapon gets a bigger damage boost from the Dmg modifier than a Blue Mk XII Dmgx2 weapon.

That suggests there is a threshold where Dmg scales better than other mods and it will probably be noticeable in cannons first.

There was one person not long ago who got better results from Fleet weapons than with Borg. I suspect that was using cannons. I also suspect he'd get better results if he swapped out his turrets for Accx3 or Borg turrets (instead of the all fleet/all Borg/all Acc test) but used fleet cannons in the front.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 232
# 2
10-05-2012, 01:27 PM
Unfortunately your theory is wrong.

This is what [Dmg] does:
It adds a fixed amount of damage to each hit.
The exact amount is depending on weapon type.
- For Beam Arrays: 5
- For Dual Beam Banks: 6.5
- For Single Cannons: 3.6
- For Dual Cannons: 4.35
- For Dual Heavy Cannons: 8.7
- For Turrets: 2.25
This damage is NOT modified by mark or rarity.
This damage IS modified by weapon power setting.
This damage is NOT modified by +damage% from abilities, consoles or other equipment.
It is NOT base-damage, it is basically a 100% proc!

[Dmg] is a very good mod at early marks.
It is not such a good mod at admiral levels.
I've tested it, it works excactly as described.
This might not be working as intended though.

Last edited by flekh; 10-05-2012 at 02:07 PM. Reason: list for weapon types
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,683
# 3
10-05-2012, 03:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by flekh View Post
Unfortunately your theory is wrong.

This is what [Dmg] does:
It adds a fixed amount of damage to each hit.
The exact amount is depending on weapon type.
- For Beam Arrays: 5
- For Dual Beam Banks: 6.5
- For Single Cannons: 3.6
- For Dual Cannons: 4.35
- For Dual Heavy Cannons: 8.7
- For Turrets: 2.25
This damage is NOT modified by mark or rarity.
This damage IS modified by weapon power setting.
This damage is NOT modified by +damage% from abilities, consoles or other equipment. It is NOT base-damage, it is basically a 100% proc!

[Dmg] is a very good mod at early marks.
It is not such a good mod at admiral levels.
I've tested it, it works excactly as described.
This might not be working as intended though.
Isn't a 100% proc basically a mod to DPS without being a mod to DPV? Am I looking at this inside out?

I think Cryptic calculates its DPS starting with DPS and then divides out to get DPV rather than multiplying DPV by speed to get DPS.

Still, the testing I've seen people do are ALL Dmg vs. ALL Accuracy and you'd get inconsistent results from that.

Dmg is the most consistent modifier and I'd argue that it might be better for DHCs on the whole.

Going off your numbers...

Dmg x3 is basically a 26.1 or 6.8% damage increase (per volt) to DHCs.
I'm showing DHCs on the exchange:

Mk XII, Dmg x3, showing at 427 DPV, 281.8 DPS.

M XII no mods, showing at 383.5 DPV, 255.7 DPS.

As expected, 26.1 damage difference.

On my ship with buffs:

Mk XII (Fleet) Dmgx3/Acc, showing at 430.5 DPV, 287 DPS (w/ consoles and mods and buffs and passive skills) (1.5 Rate of Fire)


Mk XII no mods, 367 DPV, 258 DPS. (Same speeds, same buffs, no energy consoles) (1.42 rate of fire)


29 difference, assuming due to power levels. But I see a speed discrepancy.


The first set of stats implies a shot every 1.5 seconds whereas the second set implies a shot every 1.42.

Is there possibly a major display bug here?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 232
# 4
10-05-2012, 04:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stoleviathan99 View Post
Is there possibly a major display bug here?
Mouseover when on the ground shows damage neither modified by weapon power nor by +damage%.
Mouseover in ship screen when in space shows damage modified for ... not even a clue ...
Mouseover in action bar when in space shows damage modified for weapon power and +%damage.
That's the big difference.
And not technically a bug, just ... very annoying.

Basic rule: if you want to see what a piece of ship equipment does, check in system space.

For a decently spec'ed character, with Borg Console and no further specials, ignoring accuracy-to-crit conversion (which would increase the value of CrtH, CrtD and Acc even further), the different weapon mods calculate to these increases:

[Acc] if not hitting 100%: >>>>>> ALL
[CrtH]: ~1.55%
[Dmg]: ~1.45%
[Acc]: ~1.35% (needs to be confirmed, based on theoretical conversion values)
[CrtD]: ~1%

CrtD, CrtH and even ACC scale with each other multiplicative though, so with multiple mods CrtH gains a bigger lead, CrtD catches up quickly, and so does Acc probably. DPS-wise, the perfect weapon would be [CrtH]x2 [CrtD], or [CrtH]x3 for Antiproton.

Not that [Dmg] is really far behind, it isn't - but it is technically the worst mod. It's really close though.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,166
# 5
10-05-2012, 06:54 PM
I've noticed one [DMG] mod is like upgrading a weapon to one higher mark.
For example a Mk XI DHC [DMG] will show the same DPS as a white Mk XII DHC. Seems like its a good mod for PVE if your character doesn't have a lot of points in energy or projectile weapons Specialization since your crits won't be all that good anyway so better to go with the higher sustained dps.

If you have a lot of points in the appropriate weapon specialization then the [CrtH] or [CrtD] mods are better.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 232
# 6
10-05-2012, 07:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by marc8219 View Post
I've noticed one [DMG] mod is like upgrading a weapon to one higher mark.
For example a Mk XI DHC [DMG] will show the same DPS as a white Mk XII DHC. Seems like its a good mod for PVE if your character doesn't have a lot of points in energy or projectile weapons Specialization since your crits won't be all that good anyway so better to go with the higher sustained dps.

If you have a lot of points in the appropriate weapon specialization then the [CrtH] or [CrtD] mods are better.
Actually wrong.
An upgrade by one quality (e.g. white to green) is equal to half a grade.
[Dmg] mod on the ground SEEMS to be another half grade - but as mentioned above, it's not scaling with +damage%, so that's ... inacurate.
Compare equal quality weapons, and you'll notice.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,683
# 7
10-06-2012, 12:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by flekh View Post
Mouseover when on the ground shows damage neither modified by weapon power nor by +damage%.
Mouseover in ship screen when in space shows damage modified for ... not even a clue ...
Mouseover in action bar when in space shows damage modified for weapon power and +%damage.
That's the big difference.
And not technically a bug, just ... very annoying.

Basic rule: if you want to see what a piece of ship equipment does, check in system space.

For a decently spec'ed character, with Borg Console and no further specials, ignoring accuracy-to-crit conversion (which would increase the value of CrtH, CrtD and Acc even further), the different weapon mods calculate to these increases:

[Acc] if not hitting 100%: >>>>>> ALL
[CrtH]: ~1.55%
[Dmg]: ~1.45%
[Acc]: ~1.35% (needs to be confirmed, based on theoretical conversion values)
[CrtD]: ~1%

CrtD, CrtH and even ACC scale with each other multiplicative though, so with multiple mods CrtH gains a bigger lead, CrtD catches up quickly, and so does Acc probably. DPS-wise, the perfect weapon would be [CrtH]x2 [CrtD], or [CrtH]x3 for Antiproton.

Not that [Dmg] is really far behind, it isn't - but it is technically the worst mod. It's really close though.
I'm doing consistent tests. The right damage increase is showing in the DPV.

What's weird is that if you try to filter DPS back through the DPV stat, you get different speeds on dual heavies.

If you divide DPS by Damage (or vice versa) in any consistent test, the resulting number should be the same regardless of mark or modifier on the same type of weapon.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,683
# 8
10-06-2012, 12:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stoleviathan99 View Post
Mk XII (Fleet) Dmgx3/Acc, showing at 430.5 DPV, 287 DPS (w/ consoles and mods and buffs and passive skills) (1.5 Rate of Fire)


Mk XII no mods, 367 DPV, 258 DPS. (Same speeds, same buffs, no energy consoles) (1.42 rate of fire)


29 difference, assuming due to power levels. But I see a speed discrepancy.


The first set of stats implies a shot every 1.5 seconds whereas the second set implies a shot every 1.42.

Is there possibly a major display bug here?
What I'm saying, to clarify, is that unless fleet weapons FIRE SLOWER, the DPS on a 430.5 damage weapon SHOULD BE 303.2, NOT 287.

Okay... So 29 Damage at a rate of one shot every 1.42 seconds yields a 20.42 increase, which is closer to the increase we see. 29 damage at a rate of one shot every 1.5 seconds is 19.3 extra DPS.

The problem is that the speed seems reduced by the Dmg modifier.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,103
# 9
11-07-2012, 06:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stoleviathan99 View Post
What I'm saying, to clarify, is that unless fleet weapons FIRE SLOWER, the DPS on a 430.5 damage weapon SHOULD BE 303.2, NOT 287.

Okay... So 29 Damage at a rate of one shot every 1.42 seconds yields a 20.42 increase, which is closer to the increase we see. 29 damage at a rate of one shot every 1.5 seconds is 19.3 extra DPS.

The problem is that the speed seems reduced by the Dmg modifier.
Are you perhaps using Maco Set two piece on the fleet weapon ship? Just a random thought that may account for the change.
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