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Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,838
Hello, since the first thread on this matter

http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/sh...d.php?t=374791

had to be put down due to the fact it had become slightly smelly this is the 2d pass on this matter.

Proposal Klingon Scout ships

For those of you who might have an objection to this idea, I have tried to anticipate those objections as best I can and included them in my proposal.

"Klingons don't have scientists"
This is wrong.
Since the TOS episode "Day of the Dove" we know Klingon warships carry science officers.

"But Mara was Kang's wife"
True, but "A Klingon's life is his work not his family." -Klag
So it is very unlikely she got that position had she not been suited for it or had there been no need for it on a Klingon Battlecuiser.
There was also a science station on the cruiser "Pagh" in TNG "A Matter of Honor" so it's not out of place on a Klignon warship.

"Klingons are conquerors, not explorers"
While Klingons enjoy conquering quite a lot, they have colonies on various worlds that don't seem to have any indiginous population.
And if a world had one, how did the Klingons find that planet in the first place?

Klingons do go out into space to investigate solar systems.
They do so to see if there are planets that are suitable for colonization or have exploitable resources.
If those worlds are populated they might become subjects of the Klingon Empire when warships arrive to conquer them.
Asteroids can contain valuable materials that can be mined via small mining bases constructed in or near them.
Klingons may investigate nebulae to see if they can be used as power sources etc.

For this they need ships with scientific equipment.
Sure Klingon applications of these scientific systems would be somewhat more "practical" than the way Starfleet would do things but the general functionality would be comparable.

For example Starfleet would survey a mountain to learn something about the age and history of a planet.
Klingons would survey the same mountain to see if it contains valuable minerals.

Starfleet would investigate flaura and fauna to learn something about the way evolution occured on the planet.
Klingons would check for hazards and investigate whether flaura and fauna would make them a good foodsource for a possible colonization.

A Starfleet geologist would analyze the tectonic stability of an area out of interest.
A Klingon geologist would check whether an area is stable enought for a colony, a mine or whether it is suitable for a geothermal powerplant.

Different goals, similar means.
Klingons would probably have ships more suited for long-range scouting missions compared to their battlecruisers.
Relative to their size, these vessels would have greater fuel and material reserves (spare parts) for independent operations.
They would probabaly have more dedicated sensor equipment and far less science labs of any kind than their federation counterparts.
Crew size and armament would be limited due to the need to carry the sensors, supplies etc.

So how do Klingons find new worlds to colonise or conquer?
How do they track enemy fleets?
How do they provide jamming and counter-jamming in battle?

"A sharp blade is useless without a sharp eye"- Koloth in
"Blood Oath"


What's still missing from the KDF roster is a military scout.


"But those are not canon"
Is that so?
The Raptor was actually called "scout ship" in "Sleeping Dogs".
Kruge's Bird of Prey was called that as well.
In the unremastered version of TOS there was also a Klingon scout ship.
There is also soft-canon reference to Klingon scouts which were 1/3rd the size of a contemporary cruiser.
http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Klingon_scout_vessel
So it's consistent those are not shuttlecraft but starships in their own right.

By the 24th century it seems the Klingons were still using scouts even though their class remains unknown.
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Klingon_scout_ship

Please note that since the crew of DS9 did not just refer to them a "Bird of Prey" it must be a seperate
class while the Bird of Prey was no longer used as a scout.

In the other thread, jnohd asked whether the loadout defines a Klingon ship is a scout and not its class.
I though about that and it seems that is is also not the case.
In the DS9 Episodes "Dramatis Personae" we see a Klingon battlecruiser that was sent on a bio survey mission.
The episode never refers to it as a scout.

"Shut up and use the BoP, it's got universals"
Despite this, the BoP is ill-equipped since it lacks the science consoles to do all these things.
In STO "science" does not exclusively equal "research", it equals space for good sensors, jamming equipment etc.
A ship with proper science capabilities of Klingon design is simply missing.

"So you want a Klingon copy of a Fed science ship"
No, what I propose is something seperate from science ships.
I'd like to propose a ship derived from Raptors.
Less guns, more electronic warfare.
Federation designs are pretty much derived from cruisers.
Thus a Klingon scout design would be smaller than an average Federation science ship but more maneuverable.

Here are example stats:

Tier 5 Military Scout.

Commander Science
Lieutenant Commander Science
Lieutenant Engineering
Lieutenant Tactical
Ensign Tactical

Crew: 150
Turnrate: 15
Hull: 33,000
Shield mod: 1.0
Weapons 3/2
No Subsytem targeting
Sensor Analysis
Can use Cannons
Cloak

Consoles:
Engineering:3
Science:4
Tactical:2
Bonus Power:
+5 Engines
+10 Aux


Aestetically I'd propose a Raptor with visible sensor arrays along its hull.
There is no need for any complex changes to an existing Raptor model so this would be rather simple to implement.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,299
# 2
10-31-2012, 07:10 AM
I still support the idea.
He who laughs last thinks slowest.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 159
# 3
10-31-2012, 10:10 AM
They need a dedicated sci ship. I think just more ships would make people play the kdf more.

And this sci ship looks good.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 69
# 4
10-31-2012, 11:14 AM
I like it. A Raptor based science heavy vessel makes sense for the Klingons as opposed to the Fedrats cruiser based science heavy vessels.

Another option would be a BOP mission pod that makes a BOP closer to a science vessel in capability, but a purpose built science ship is a better solution.
Ensign
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 8
# 5
10-31-2012, 12:10 PM
The KDF needs a science vessel and have needed one for a long time. I will buy one if they make it and not stick in a lock box.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 69
# 6
11-01-2012, 09:09 AM
We do actually have a series of Gorn vessels that are true science ships, but they're C-Store items, and they're basicall ycopies of what the Feds get for free.

I think what the OP is asking for is a science vessel that's more Klingon flavoured, and basing it on an escort would definately make it different then the Fed science ships.

If people dislike having Klingons and Science together in one sentence (I'm not sure why) then we can use the term "electronics warfare" instead.
Commander
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 460
# 7
01-04-2013, 08:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by misterde3 View Post
Hello, since the first thread on this matter

http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/sh...d.php?t=374791

had to be put down due to the fact it had become slightly smelly this is the 2d pass on this matter.

Proposal Klingon Scout ships

For those of you who might have an objection to this idea, I have tried to anticipate those objections as best I can and included them in my proposal.

"Klingons don't have scientists"
This is wrong.
Since the TOS episode "Day of the Dove" we know Klingon warships carry science officers.

"But Mara was Kang's wife"
True, but "A Klingon's life is his work not his family." -Klag
So it is very unlikely she got that position had she not been suited for it or had there been no need for it on a Klingon Battlecuiser.
There was also a science station on the cruiser "Pagh" in TNG "A Matter of Honor" so it's not out of place on a Klignon warship.

"Klingons are conquerors, not explorers"
While Klingons enjoy conquering quite a lot, they have colonies on various worlds that don't seem to have any indiginous population.
And if a world had one, how did the Klingons find that planet in the first place?

Klingons do go out into space to investigate solar systems.
They do so to see if there are planets that are suitable for colonization or have exploitable resources.
If those worlds are populated they might become subjects of the Klingon Empire when warships arrive to conquer them.
Asteroids can contain valuable materials that can be mined via small mining bases constructed in or near them.
Klingons may investigate nebulae to see if they can be used as power sources etc.

For this they need ships with scientific equipment.
Sure Klingon applications of these scientific systems would be somewhat more "practical" than the way Starfleet would do things but the general functionality would be comparable.

For example Starfleet would survey a mountain to learn something about the age and history of a planet.
Klingons would survey the same mountain to see if it contains valuable minerals.

Starfleet would investigate flaura and fauna to learn something about the way evolution occured on the planet.
Klingons would check for hazards and investigate whether flaura and fauna would make them a good foodsource for a possible colonization.

A Starfleet geologist would analyze the tectonic stability of an area out of interest.
A Klingon geologist would check whether an area is stable enought for a colony, a mine or whether it is suitable for a geothermal powerplant.

Different goals, similar means.
Klingons would probably have ships more suited for long-range scouting missions compared to their battlecruisers.
Relative to their size, these vessels would have greater fuel and material reserves (spare parts) for independent operations.
They would probabaly have more dedicated sensor equipment and far less science labs of any kind than their federation counterparts.
Crew size and armament would be limited due to the need to carry the sensors, supplies etc.

So how do Klingons find new worlds to colonise or conquer?
How do they track enemy fleets?
How do they provide jamming and counter-jamming in battle?

"A sharp blade is useless without a sharp eye"- Koloth in
"Blood Oath"


What's still missing from the KDF roster is a military scout.


"But those are not canon"
Is that so?
The Raptor was actually called "scout ship" in "Sleeping Dogs".
Kruge's Bird of Prey was called that as well.
In the unremastered version of TOS there was also a Klingon scout ship.
There is also soft-canon reference to Klingon scouts which were 1/3rd the size of a contemporary cruiser.
http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Klingon_scout_vessel
So it's consistent those are not shuttlecraft but starships in their own right.

By the 24th century it seems the Klingons were still using scouts even though their class remains unknown.
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Klingon_scout_ship

Please note that since the crew of DS9 did not just refer to them a "Bird of Prey" it must be a seperate
class while the Bird of Prey was no longer used as a scout.

In the other thread, jnohd asked whether the loadout defines a Klingon ship is a scout and not its class.
I though about that and it seems that is is also not the case.
In the DS9 Episodes "Dramatis Personae" we see a Klingon battlecruiser that was sent on a bio survey mission.
The episode never refers to it as a scout.

"Shut up and use the BoP, it's got universals"
Despite this, the BoP is ill-equipped since it lacks the science consoles to do all these things.
In STO "science" does not exclusively equal "research", it equals space for good sensors, jamming equipment etc.
A ship with proper science capabilities of Klingon design is simply missing.

"So you want a Klingon copy of a Fed science ship"
No, what I propose is something seperate from science ships.
I'd like to propose a ship derived from Raptors.
Less guns, more electronic warfare.
Federation designs are pretty much derived from cruisers.
Thus a Klingon scout design would be smaller than an average Federation science ship but more maneuverable.

Here are example stats:

Tier 5 Military Scout.

Commander Science
Lieutenant Commander Science
Lieutenant Engineering
Lieutenant Tactical
Ensign Tactical

Crew: 150
Turnrate: 15
Hull: 33,000
Shield mod: 1.0
Weapons 3/2
No Subsytem targeting
Sensor Analysis
Can use Cannons
Cloak

Consoles:
Engineering:3
Science:4
Tactical:2
Bonus Power:
+5 Engines
+10 Aux


Aestetically I'd propose a Raptor with visible sensor arrays along its hull.
There is no need for any complex changes to an existing Raptor model so this would be rather simple to implement.
Klingons are not so one dimesional, yes warrior culture is glorified by Klingon Empire, but not all Klingons are members of the warrior class, many are simple farmers, or miners, and other occupations. The Klingon Empire was even briefly a democracy for a time.

As Jadzia Dax points out Klingons can be as varied as any other race, and that includes curiosity. Especially if they work for II (Imperial Intelligence). That's like the Klingon Obsiden Order.

Interestingly Imperial Intelligence Officers can't be challenged like regular KDF officers, so if an II officer does something to insult your honor one can't demand a fight, you just have to take it.

I can see II officers having scout ships or regular science ships, because like any other intelligence gathering group, they want to know everything
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,838
# 8
01-05-2013, 03:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordgyor View Post
Klingons are not so one dimesional, yes warrior culture is glorified by Klingon Empire, but not all Klingons are members of the warrior class, many are simple farmers, or miners, and other occupations. The Klingon Empire was even briefly a democracy for a time.

As Jadzia Dax points out Klingons can be as varied as any other race, and that includes curiosity. Especially if they work for II (Imperial Intelligence). That's like the Klingon Obsiden Order.

Interestingly Imperial Intelligence Officers can't be challenged like regular KDF officers, so if an II officer does something to insult your honor one can't demand a fight, you just have to take it.

I can see II officers having scout ships or regular science ships, because like any other intelligence gathering group, they want to know everything
Thanks, I know that.
All of it.
I've read "The Art of the Impossible", "Diplomatic Implausibility", "Tales of the Dominion War", "The Left Hand of Destiny" pt. 1 & 2, "Diplomatic Implausibility", "The Brave and the Bold" pt. 1 & 2, the IKS Gorkon Novel Series, most of the "Vanguard" novels, etc.

I've also always said the Klingons are not a "Boom-Boom-Faction".
And if you only construct you fictional species from cliches, you don't get a culture, you get a farce without any depth.

However the thing you might want to keep in mind is that we play as part of the Klingon military, the KDF.
Which is dominated by warriors, who will of course think like warriors.
We don't play II, not to mention how much the KDF despises II.
Have a look at RL militaries and see how few really purely civilian "vehicles" (as a general term) they have and operate in the field.
The KDF has a whole lot more in common with current RL militaries than the fairy tale Starfleet and the military uses units with military applications.

In addition I'd like to ask you to have a look at the recent "Haynes Owner's Workshop Manual" for the Klingon Bird of Prey, which clearly explains how a starship is ordered and designed.
Great houses place an order to a renwl' (architect) that is assigned to them.
The houses have specific expectations what their ships are supposed to be capable of and the renwl' has to somehow design as ship that actually works from their input.
This can sometimes lead to a duel since the house representatiives tend to have somewhat unrealistic expectations and demand overgunned ships without any balance etc.
To quote from the book:
"It is a position of great honor since it is one of the rare roles that allows a common civilian to tell a noble warrior that he is wrong."

In other terms: the warriors (at least to some degree) even call the shots when it comes to ship design.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,292
# 9
01-08-2013, 08:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by misterde3 View Post
'snip'

"Shut up and use the BoP, it's got universals"

'snip'
.
I took out the parts of your post that really weren't relevant.


Way to many assumptions. As in "more than one".

You need to know that canon in Star Trek is one of the weakest out there. Something you derive from something someone else derived from something someone else thought would make a great story, does not an argument make. It makes a mess.

"I want this ship because I think it would be super cool." probably would have sufficed.

And saved a lot of reading.

And can't be gainsayed.
If I don't respond to posts on this forum don't be offended. I don't sub or follow any of them.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,838
# 10
01-09-2013, 02:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thissler View Post
I took out the parts of your post that really weren't relevant.


Way to many assumptions. As in "more than one".

You need to know that canon in Star Trek is one of the weakest out there. Something you derive from something someone else derived from something someone else thought would make a great story, does not an argument make. It makes a mess.

"I want this ship because I think it would be super cool." probably would have sufficed.

And saved a lot of reading.

And can't be gainsayed.
You're probably right I overdid it a bit (or a bit more).
But believe it or not, since I've been on these forums, which is not that long compared to others, only since Jan 2010 I've heard/read pretty much every single one of those arguments.
Several times in fact.
Not always in this context (which was even more discussed before the Varanus was introduced) but in others.
For example "they are not explorers" was brought up when the question was raised why the Klingons can't scan/collect anomalies, which was later changed to the same form the Feds have.
So it's mostly a collection of statements from previous discussions on the subject.
I couldn't have come up with all of these on my own.

Last edited by misterde3; 01-09-2013 at 02:27 AM.
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