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Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,448
Okay.

So here's where I am confused.

Other games I play have had "egg hunt" or "trick or treat" mechanisms similar to the Academy Event. Many other games I have played have had trading systems like the Exchange.

In other games (which I believe STO took inspiration from), these events and mechanics were regarded as no holds bar intra-faction PvP. The stated goal was to pit players against one another, to hog resources, to drive market prices up. In fact, I think the design of these systems makes no sense with any other goal in mind.

The Academy Event in particular brings to mind the Robert Redford film "The Last Castle" in which a prison warden arranges for a shortage of basketballs on the court in order to incite inmates to fight. If the goal was not to be competitive and aggressive, there shouldn't be a scarcity of anomalies to scan.

In my mind, the idea of "courtesy" there is akin to suggesting that players should show mercy and not kill one another in Ker'rat; it seems contrary to the design of the encounter. I don't dispute that more social or gracious behavior is better for a game in my opinion but it seems contrary to the design of the encounter to expect players to show grace or mercy in the Academy Event, being as how it is modeled on systems in other games whose developers proudly labeled their similar events as aggressive, anti-social, and a deliberate form of indirect PvP.

So I guess my question is, why would the event be designed the way it is if it wasn't designed around the idea of selfishly shutting other players out? That's what capture the flag is too. It's a resource grab. That's what resource grabs exist to provoke.

Thoughts welcome.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,416
# 2
10-31-2012, 09:08 PM
Haven't done the Academy Event since Testing, but usually boiled down to with respecting peoples boundaries.

You see an empty scan, then it's free. But if you go up to one where people are standing and taking it, or knowing someone is doing multiples and running up before that person is able to, not very respectful.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,448
# 3
10-31-2012, 09:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by azurianstar View Post
Haven't done the Academy Event since Testing, but usually boiled down to with respecting peoples boundaries.

You see an empty scan, then it's free. But if you go up to one where people are standing and taking it, or knowing someone is doing multiples and running up before that person is able to, not very respectful.
But the design encounter suggests your goal is to beat them. That's what I don't get. This is a lift from other games like WoW and the devs there said, effectively, that the goal was to provoke players into competing, that courtesy was counter to the design.

In fact, Cryptic has employed similar systems in the past and when they were not intended to function as PvP, Cryptic took pains to make sure that similar events were based on an internal player timer rather than a resource grab. The point of a resource grab is selfishness. Courtesy is like letting the other team capture your flag in PvP.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 97
# 4
10-31-2012, 09:17 PM
Most people are probably going to wonder what the heck you are talking about. Or to put it another way, what your point is. However, I caught your earlier conversation in another thread where you were trying to convince someone that the academy event was "PvP", and this thread is obviously an extension of that. To put it quite simply, you were wrong then and you are still wrong now. There are 2 different reasons:

1) "PvP", in gaming terms, refers to players fighting each other in actual combat. Thats really all there is to it. The whole reason we use words is because they have commonly understood meanings, and when Devs talk about PvP balance or updates they are not talking about people competing for resources, or people arguing on the forums, or people outbidding each other on the exchange. They are specifically talking about player vs player combat.

2) Even if competing for a limited number of resources were "PvP", you are forgetting that STO has caps on the number of players who can be in an instance at a given time. Therefore you will never have more players on a given academy map than there are anomalies, and the fact that they are constantly respawning means they arent really limited.

So no matter which angle you look at it, you are wrong both ways.

Last edited by lillithiae; 10-31-2012 at 09:32 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 11,092
# 5
10-31-2012, 09:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lillithiae View Post
But regardless of #2, its pretty silly that you are still trying to convince people you are right about the academy event being PvP. Words have a commonly understood meaning, and the commonly understood meaning of PvP is actually fighting other players. Competing for resources is no more "PvP" than trying to be the first one to donate fleet marks when a new starbase project becomes available
Actually, that totally is PvP. Seriously.

What is PvP but Player vs. Player conflict? One could reasonably describe any and all player conflict as PvP. You don't have to be killing each other.
http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o633/centersolace/189cux9khvl6ojpg_zpsca7ccff0.jpg

So inhumane superweapons, mass murder, and canon nonsense is okay, but speedos are too much for some people.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 97
# 6
10-31-2012, 09:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by centersolace View Post
Actually, that totally is PvP. Seriously.

What is PvP but Player vs. Player conflict? One could reasonably describe any and all player conflict as PvP. You don't have to be killing each other.
While I understand the point you are trying to make, the whole point of this thread is the OP is trying to win a game of semantics, related to an earlier conversation he had with someone today. You know as well as I do that in the gaming community the term PvP refers specifically to player vs player combat. When devs talk about PvP balance or updates they are not talking about people competing for resources or arguing on the forums or outbidding one another on the exchange. Again, this thread is just the OP trying to win a semantical argument, and its pretty silly.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 11,092
# 7
10-31-2012, 10:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lillithiae View Post
While I understand the point you are trying to make, the whole point of this thread is the OP is trying to win a game of semantics, related to an earlier conversation he had with someone today. You know as well as I do that in the gaming community the term PvP refers specifically to player vs player combat. When devs talk about PvP balance or updates they are not talking about people competing for resources or arguing on the forums or outbidding one another on the exchange. Again, this thread is just the OP trying to win a semantical argument, and its pretty silly.
But is his argument sound? Yes PvP usually refers to player vs. player combat, but what Levy is trying to argue is whether or not PvP is more than that. And it is.

Unless of course you're arguing that Starcraft or Age of Empires are not PvP as those involve a great deal of resource gathering. While you are correct in that PvP refers to player vs player combat, it is not right to disregard resource gathering or even auctions as a form of PvP.

Thousands of Koreans and Auctioneers disagree with you.
http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o633/centersolace/189cux9khvl6ojpg_zpsca7ccff0.jpg

So inhumane superweapons, mass murder, and canon nonsense is okay, but speedos are too much for some people.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,448
# 8
10-31-2012, 10:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lillithiae View Post
While I understand the point you are trying to make, the whole point of this thread is the OP is trying to win a game of semantics, related to an earlier conversation he had with someone today. You know as well as I do that in the gaming community the term PvP refers specifically to player vs player combat. When devs talk about PvP balance or updates they are not talking about people competing for resources or arguing on the forums or outbidding one another on the exchange. Again, this thread is just the OP trying to win a semantical argument, and its pretty silly.
It's not semantics for me. It's philosophy. I'd be totally fine with the event being redesigned as something else.

Cryptic is generally pretty tight lipped on philosophy but I can link you other MMO devs describing events like these as PvP and describing auction houses as a PvP mechanic. There was a lengthy interview with a WoW dev who went on a spree praising WoW's use of indirect PvP play, citing the auction house as the big underrated PvP arena in WoW.

In fact, if I have any point to make, it's that Cryptic may be looking at things wrong if they don't consider this PvP and that while the Academy is probably a bad place for it. this kind of play and things like competitive time trials should be the core basis for PvP in STO because it's probably the most popular PvP in STO.

In general, I think COMBAT PvP is the worst kind and worst received kind of PvP whereas the indirect stuff is potent and easier to maintain if you're willing to own up and treat it as PvP, as other developers do.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 11,092
# 9
10-31-2012, 09:16 PM
The answer to your question is, it is. That's the entire point of those type of events. I think the problem with it is that it does not suit the location. After all, a game where you are encouraged to be selfish, and hog resources really shouldn't be located in the heart of an organization that promotes teamwork, compromise, and altruism.
http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o633/centersolace/189cux9khvl6ojpg_zpsca7ccff0.jpg

So inhumane superweapons, mass murder, and canon nonsense is okay, but speedos are too much for some people.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,448
# 10
10-31-2012, 09:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by centersolace View Post
The answer to your question is, it is. That's the entire point of those type of events. I think the problem with it is that it does not suit the location. After all, a game where you are encouraged to be selfish, and hog resources really shouldn't be located in the heart of an organization that promotes teamwork, compromise, and altruism.
Oh, agreed. I can think of ways I'd redesign it. Honestly, it makes no IP sense nor do I get the design sensibility if the expectation is for people to be courteous.

Like I say, people showing courtesy at the Academy event is like letting someone capture the flag.

When I first saw it, I assumed it was a holoprojector malfunction we were cleaning up. And then when I read the backstory, it made a lot less sense. It's basically a training class to teach people who are already Academy graduates how to be jerks.
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