Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,553
# 1 This Week's Cruiser Thread
11-01-2012, 04:20 AM
I was noticing the forum was lacking in a cruiser thread, and since I know it's customary for there to be one either each patch or at least weekly, I have thus started it.

Now for the usual blah blah blah, cruisers suck, blah blah blah, make us a god ship.

Ok, that's done and over with.

Now for the real reason behind this post. I really want to know. How many of you think cruisers are under/over/just right on power level and ability. And I want to know why. Lastly, I don't want opinions mixed with facts. I don't want anyone to argue that someone else's point is moot, or bias, or total bs. I only want you to say what you think is the case, and then leave it at that. Feel free to read other's posts, but I would prefer you guys not start attacking each other.

Basically I am asking you guys to keep it clean, and just put your thoughts out there. Engage!
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,968
# 2
11-01-2012, 05:40 AM
personally, though i do not think cruisers are underpowered in any way that matters, believe they could get a +1 or even +2 turnrate increase. All of them, except the vor'cha...10 should be the upper limit for cruiser turnrate.
The negh'var is a perfect example of how cruisers should be able to maneuver.
Also a little inertia increase would go well along with that in my opinion.
Some of them just feel too clumsy.
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Lieutenant
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 60
# 3
11-01-2012, 05:53 AM
I personally think that cruisers need moar tac options without looking at the c-store offerings,Excelsior/Regent im looking at you.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,757
# 4
11-01-2012, 05:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by baudl View Post
personally, though i do not think cruisers are underpowered in any way that matters, believe they could get a +1 or even +2 turnrate increase. All of them, except the vor'cha...10 should be the upper limit for cruiser turnrate.
The negh'var is a perfect example of how cruisers should be able to maneuver.
Also a little inertia increase would go well along with that in my opinion.
Some of them just feel too clumsy.
This^ .

Some new weapons, new BOff abilities added to the game
A turnrate buff and I think the "Cruiser is weak" issue will be solved.
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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,462
# 5
11-01-2012, 06:36 AM
This post is about PVE. PVP is fundamentally different and requires a completely different approach to balance which STO doesn't even attempt.

Cruisers are underpowered.

A well built escort can fly so fast and so evasively that whatever damage DOES stick to them can usually be shrugged off even with their lesser healing abilities. A stationary escort is less durable than a stationary cruiser, but a stationary escort is suicidal so it's not really a useful comparison. Occasionally escorts will just spontaneously explode with no chance to throw a bandaid on the holes in the hull, but generally speaking, they kill things so fast that the numbers facing them swing in their favor very quickly: an uber-escort can wipe out a formation of 4 or 5 spheres in seconds, while in my cruiser I engage one target at a time, taking a minute to kill each one, and I am forced to face the enemy's overwhelming firepower for a longer span of time.

Cruisers have less firepower, fewer tactical abilities, and the tactical abilities for beams are fundamentally poorer than the ones for cannons; cruisers generally have fewer tactical consoles and weapon power buffs; cruisers generally have about 20% more hull and shields than escorts, in exchange for at least 50% less maneuverability which makes it extremely difficult for them to dictate combat range and facings; and their vaunted durability really only means that fights either drag on indefinitely or you get buried under an avalanche of enemy firepower that you can't repel or get away from. Defense doesn't win fights: hurting the other guy faster than he can hurt you is what wins fights.

I feel like I'm contributing to the team in my cruiser, but as a cheerleader, or that guy keeping the drinks cold while the actual players are out there winning. Stay in the rear, throw torpedoes, heal the escorts mixing it up in the mid field. The team would probably be better served by another escort that can help them kill the enemy even faster because the faster you kill, the less damage you take and the more irrelevant healing becomes. The only cruiser I have that actually feels like I can be a player instead of a cheerleader is the Vor'cha, with its not-terrible maneuverability and its ability to mount dual cannons. Use that as a baseline for what cruisers SHOULD be capable of.

Do I seem annoyed? >_>

Last edited by momaw; 11-01-2012 at 06:40 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 6
11-03-2012, 01:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by baudl View Post
personally, though i do not think cruisers are underpowered in any way that matters, believe they could get a +1 or even +2 turnrate increase. All of them, except the vor'cha...10 should be the upper limit for cruiser turnrate.
The negh'var is a perfect example of how cruisers should be able to maneuver.
Also a little inertia increase would go well along with that in my opinion.
Some of them just feel too clumsy.
I think this would solve the majority of the issues with the actual design of cruisers.


As for the actual role a cruiser is supposed to fill in PvE, the problem is not with the actual design of Cruisers and more the design of PvE.


So either PvE needs to change to actually make the role of healer or tank useful, or Cruisers need to be brought in line with what this game has for a PvE environment.

The same can be said of Sci ships.


Right now PvE has, broadly speaking, two levels of damage output from NPCs:

1) Not enough damage to realistically stress a careful or well played Escort.

2) Enough damage to one-shot kill even a good cruiser.


Damage levels could be:

1) Enough damage to stress a good cruiser, without the cruiser being attacked by everything on the map.
2) Enough damage to stress a good cruiser that has healing support from another ship.


This would push the game more towards holy trinity playstyle.

You can argue the merits or negative aspects of that all you like.

Without a playstyle that pushes closer to that, there is no point to have a ship that fills any role outside of DPS.

If that is the design intent of the game (no trinity or role specialization pve model), then fine - but the ships that were designed for roles that are not actually needed should be brought in line with the game environment.

Otherwise we can expect threads like this to appear for as long as this game exists.


Last edited by ussultimatum; 11-03-2012 at 01:31 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,553
# 7
11-03-2012, 05:44 PM
On a positive note, this thread hasn't turned nasty. Yet.

But ultimatum is right. As long as most of the end-game content is damage based, ships that don't have high DPS/overall damage output will be left behind.

I fly a tac oddy that can deal some significant damage, but only because I designed it specifically for damage output. Even then though, I still have trouble keeping up other ships (like KDF battlecruisers) when it comes to damage output. As support and tanking go, even specced towards damage, my Oddy works wonderfully. Sufficed to say, if I am on the map and actually awake and paying attention on my engi, whoever has aggro is guaranteed to have at least 4 heals ready to throw at them at any given time, 2 HoTs, 1 big heal, and 1 small heal (HE1, TSS1/TSS2, ET3, Aux2SIF3). I occasionally reserve one or two of them for myself, but only when I have aggro.

So I can still deal some pretty nice damage while at the same time heal others AND tank if I need to. But since the game is geared almost purely towards damage, it makes it hard to justify using my tac oddy over my FPE (which runs standard 4 DHCs/3 turrets build).

So what I can tell, other than being a little clumsy and clunky, cruisers as a ship class are fine. The only problems appear to be that the game doesn't need them. Which tbh is true. As stated, you don't need a tank, because you just kill it faster to keep it from hurting you, and you don't need the supporting heals, since most damage dealing ships can stay alive easily. And against things they can't stay alive against, it kills you so fast that you can't outheal it, OR it one shots you.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Tired of Wasting EC and Time trying to get Superior Romulan Operative BOffs? Here's a cheap and easy way to get them, with an almost 100% chance of success.
Why the Devs can't make PvE content harder.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 114
# 8
11-03-2012, 05:54 PM
Cruisers can kill anything an escort can. The difference is that it takes a cruiser much longer to do it. This is of course not news to anyone. Timed missions don't do cruisers any favors. Cruisers can go toe to toe with an enemy for days, problem is you don't have days because the mission clock is going tick...tick...tick. Meanwhile the escorts are darting about killing everything in sight. I can see where cruiser skippers get the feeling that they're underpowered. Cruisers aren't underpowered...it's just that so many missions in STO depend on killing the enemy as fast as possible and that's not the cruiser's strong suit. It's not cruisers that need an overhaul...it's the missions.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 734
# 9
11-04-2012, 01:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzout View Post
Cruisers aren't underpowered...it's just that so many missions in STO depend on killing the enemy as fast as possible and that's not the cruiser's strong suit. It's not cruisers that need an overhaul...it's the missions.
Not sure I agree as we have got the stage now where sci ships out damage cruisers. How many sci ships are there with 3 or 4 tactical slots and sensor analysis? Ships like assault cruiser are starting to feel very underwhelming as there role is DPS with tank but they cannot really do it.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 483
# 10
11-11-2012, 09:12 AM
I can see two possible solutions for the cruiser.

1st and easist, add a cruiser and maybe science ship phaser that does either allot more damage or fires more often at a shorter range, maybe 1/2 the normal range, but is still affected by FAW, and Beam overload. either way, one or two of these would help out with damage, but only at knife fighting ranges, so the playing field would be roughly even.

The 2nd possibility would be some sort of passive to buff cruisers. Maybe give them a slightly reduced refire rate on either Phaser arrays or torpedoes (probably not both).

Either could make cruisers more competitive, although I think both might be overkill.

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