Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,299
# 1 Fairness in PvP
11-11-2012, 03:56 AM
This is just something that came up on my mind once, and I thought I would like to see people's opinions on the topic.

I have heard people say that they enjoy PvP as long as it's fair. So, what do you count as fair in PvP?

For example, things like siphon builds and Danube spams are generally considered unfair from what I've seen on the forums. However, people seem to be much more divided on things like AMS or Graviton Pulse, whereas TBR in its current state, tric mine crits from cloaked B'Rels and Isometric Charge are generally okay.

So, what's your criteria for considering something fair/unfair? Having a legitimate counter that can be used solo/by a team? Not going above a certain amount of damage that seems ridiculous?

And what's your response to someone who is doing something unfair in your opinion? Do you ignore the person? Say something in chat? Scold him? Make him a priority target? Or even (God forbid) warp out?

And finally, given common agreement on something being unfair, what role can the devs play in mitigating it?

Just one last thing, though. I would much rather this thread not turn into a flame war or anything and get closed, so please bear in mind that no one person may necessarily be absolutely right. This thread is simply to solicit others' opinions on the subject, and for rational discussion.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 12,160
# 2
11-11-2012, 04:37 AM
STO PvP is casual PvP. It's pew pew phun! That being said, a fair fight tends to be one where each side has a fighting chance - you pew pew phun! If it's a case that you spawn, you die, you respawn, you die, you respawn, you die... and... you hesitate - well, it's likely that you're not having fun, eh?

Now, were the PvP about territory control - attacking an enemy base, defending your base - etc, etc, etc - something where the outcome of the fight actually mattered... then it's no longer about pew pew phun! In that case, screw the fair fight. It's about winning - as long as one is not cheating, exploiting bugs, etc, etc, etc.

Two different animals...

...the pew pew phun from fair fights - is pretty much missing in STO at this point.
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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,395
# 3
11-11-2012, 04:48 AM
I honestly don't have any formal "blacklist" because in my opinion it's a little silly to pretend you can draw some kind of line in the sand in STO. I mean where do you stop with pay2win, for example? Are Fleet ships p2w? How about the C-store?

That said I personally try to play as cleanly and as fairly as possible. I think most of us know when we're using unpleasant or "cheesy" loadouts, those people likely don't need reminding.

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Rihannsu
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 366
# 4
11-11-2012, 05:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by scurry5 View Post
I have heard people say that they enjoy PvP as long as it's fair. So, what do you count as fair in PvP?
Fair is when both teams are equal. Doesn't matter who wins, when both teams are good it is always a fun game.
Quote:
And what's your response to someone who is doing something unfair in your opinion?
Complaints are useless.
Captain
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 663
# 5
11-11-2012, 06:34 AM
Fair? PvP? In the same sentence?

The faster people learns that pvp is not about fairness the better.
Co-founder of The Spanish Inquisition TSI - Cause no one expects it!

PaxOttomana: gawd mirror event is like fighting a tsi premade, they keep comin and comin!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 230
# 6
11-11-2012, 07:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by devorasx View Post
The faster people learns that pvp is not about fairness the better.
Why do you think the fighters are not allowed to bring guns to a boxing match? A set of rules that makes the competition fair increases the fun of the fight.

Cryptic doesn't understand how balance in this game works, but that doesn't mean that we have to intentionally make the game worse by using all the stupid consoles.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,228
# 7
11-11-2012, 07:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fakehilbert View Post
Why do you think the fighters are not allowed to bring guns to a boxing match? A set of rules that makes the competition fair increases the fun of the fight.

Cryptic doesn't understand how balance in this game works, but that doesn't mean that we have to intentionally make the game worse by using all the stupid consoles.
I agree. Sadly though, the majority of players in the q's seem all to willing to defend their right to use broken mechanics.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,325
# 8
11-11-2012, 08:34 AM
As Shimmer said, it's not really realistic to have a personal or community blacklist. Nobody can stop people from using ciphons or SNB doffs. All that said, one players' blacklist might differ from the next.

Things tend to change in relation to how many in a given group are using something. AMS is okay if 1/5 have it and use it, but anymore then 3 and it makes PVP a chore.

Such things would not be needed of course if Cryptic would pull their thumbs out and stop releasing things that personify cheese/unfair/OP abilities, weapons and ships. Season 7's handful that includes the Vesta and rep system abilities have actually made me NOT look forward to a STO season. That's never happened before. Again, very sad.
Captain
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 663
# 9
11-11-2012, 10:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fakehilbert View Post
Why do you think the fighters are not allowed to bring guns to a boxing match? A set of rules that makes the competition fair increases the fun of the fight.

Cryptic doesn't understand how balance in this game works, but that doesn't mean that we have to intentionally make the game worse by using all the stupid consoles.
What we wish for is all good and dandy, but there is a realism out there that people will do anythign to get an advantage.

OFFCOURSE i want fairness and a fun game, but when you have Cryptic not doign something concret, then what can we do?
Co-founder of The Spanish Inquisition TSI - Cause no one expects it!

PaxOttomana: gawd mirror event is like fighting a tsi premade, they keep comin and comin!
Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 363
# 10
11-11-2012, 01:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by devorasx View Post
What we wish for is all good and dandy, but there is a realism out there that people will do anythign to get an advantage.

OFFCOURSE i want fairness and a fun game, but when you have Cryptic not doign something concret, then what can we do?
Incorrect. This is a generalization and you know it.

There are some, like TRH that will call it a handicap to go up against an opponent using P2W. In fact, this example was taken from YOUR fleet. Long before Yoda became a target caller in TRH, long before Delta, Draco, Hank, Chorkswald, or any of the current TRH roster. I took this example and began a long journey. This journey is now complete, and this fleet now employs a deterrence factor when it comes to Sub Nuke Doffs and a Handicap attitude towards those that use P2W.

Setting example sets the bar for competition. When you ask "what can we do?" it seems almost as though you were never around for the days when TSI refused and influenced this community not to use P2W.

I'm glad TRH doesn't share your attitude. I stand by what Hilbert said, don't give boxers guns before they enter the ring.
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