Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,416
Was just in a Tholian Red Alert (one that actually worked), and I was in a B'rel Refit, was already cloaked for several seconds (so if I had aggro, the ship would've lost it a while ago).

And out of the blue, I was struck by a Tholian Disruptor Torpedo, doing 60% hull damage.

So the only thing I can conclude is that Tholian Torpedos must have Anti-Cloak tracking of somekind. And last I checked, only Federation NPCs had that capability.




BTW, think we can tone down on the Tholian disables. Seems almost impossible to fight with constant disables, and you only got so much to repair ability.
Cryptic Studios Team
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,219
# 2
11-29-2012, 09:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by azurianstar View Post
Was just in a Tholian Red Alert (one that actually worked), and I was in a B'rel Refit, was already cloaked for several seconds (so if I had aggro, the ship would've lost it a while ago).

And out of the blue, I was struck by a Tholian Disruptor Torpedo, doing 60% hull damage.

So the only thing I can conclude is that Tholian Torpedos must have Anti-Cloak tracking of somekind. And last I checked, only Federation NPCs had that capability.

BTW, think we can tone down on the Tholian disables. Seems almost impossible to fight with constant disables, and you only got so much to repair ability.

If the torpedo was an entity (targetable), then it will continue tracking you after you cloak unless you get >10km from it, or use Jam Sensors on it. Stealth on its own doesn't remove you from its target. This is true for any targetable torpedo, not just the Heavy Disruption Torpedoes.

As for the disables... keep in mind that Tholian ships have less shields and hull than any other space critter. So while they may disable you regularly, they shouldn't be, in the end, much more difficult than other space critters, due to this fragility.

One of our goals when designing a major new enemy group like the Tholians, is getting players to try out new tactics and countermeasures against them. The fact that Tholian weaponry can drain and disable you should mean that things like Target Subsystem: Weapons and Emergency Power to Weapons become more valuable tools when facing off against them. Their Tholian Webs also make it a near-necessity to keep an AOE power like Photonic Shockwave, Tractor Beam Repulsors, or Beam Fire-at-Will on hand and ready to use.

In the end, it's all about making the game more interesting and fun. Try something new when facing an enemy you think is too hard/annoying. You may be pleasantly surprised by the results.
-=-=-=-=-=-
Jeremy Randall
Cryptic - Systems Design
"Play smart!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Me
Kurland here...
Cryptic Studios Team
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,219
# 3
11-29-2012, 09:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
If the torpedo was an entity (targetable), then it will continue tracking you after you cloak unless you get >10km from it, or use Jam Sensors on it. Stealth on its own doesn't remove you from its target. This is true for any targetable torpedo, not just the Heavy Disruption Torpedoes.
I feel as though additional explanation may be warranted here...

Targetable Torpedoes are entities, but they do not possess standard AI for controlling their behavior. This means that they do not have a threat list, perception list, pathfinding, or any of that sort of "core AI" programming.

When launched, they follow a very simple script that says the following:

1) Get my owner's current target.
2) Set that as my target.
3) Pursue my target.
4) When in range of my target, explode.

Targetable Torpedoes are incapable of making decisions to take any actions other than the above. Although, there's also a failsafe substate built in that says basically:

3b) If my target is no longer valid, pick a new one from my owner's threat list.

The only way that this condition will kick in, is if you are absolutely untargetable to the torpedo. The only things that prevent you from being considered a "valid target" are:

a) Death (yours, or the torpedo)
b) Get out of range of both the torpedo and its owner (10k should do it, I'm pretty sure)
c) Use a "Placate" ability on the torpedo (this is not the same as stealth - it's an AI flag that renders you untargetable to the victim of the ability)
d) Enter a cutscene or other mission-specific mechanic that renders you untargetable.

There may be other methods I've forgotten about in my pre-coffee morning haze.

TL;DR - Even though they travel a bit like entities, don't expect Torpedoes to behave as if they have AI.
-=-=-=-=-=-
Jeremy Randall
Cryptic - Systems Design
"Play smart!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Me
Kurland here...
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,780
# 4
11-29-2012, 10:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by azurianstar View Post
...BTW, think we can tone down on the Tholian disables. Seems almost impossible to fight with constant disables, and you only got so much to repair ability.
AzurianStar, I don't mean to be argumentative, nor take away your entitled opinion. However, I do want to say that personally, I rather enjoy fighting the Tholians. They have some of the most interesting tactics in PvE combat. Between thier disables, web capturing, and/or throwing up "shield walls", it keeps me on my toes much more than any other foe. It's still mostly a faceroll (as is most PvE), but I do occasionally have to intelligently pick which BO power to reserve for use at the right time. I'd "vote" that Tholians stay as they are (in fact, giving them more CC wouldn't offend me).

You can find/contact me in game as @PatricianVetinari. Original Join Date: Feb 2010.
Need Help with Ship's Power? Check out my Ship Power Guide and Calculator.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,627
# 5
11-29-2012, 11:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
In the end, it's all about making the game more interesting and fun.
I rather have my teeth pulled that get into another Tholian Red Alert.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 743
# 6
11-29-2012, 12:24 PM
I have also enjoyed the different abilities of the Tholians. They're also visually very cool, and the idea to add more things in space like webs is somethig I enjoy, especially for its novelty. I don't know when it was added, but the Gorn shield thing that's like the Tholian barrier is also cool.

Quote:
Originally Posted by f2pdrakron View Post
I rather have my teeth pulled that get into another Tholian Red Alert.
The two problems I have with Red Alerts are:

1. Every enemy is agroed to the spawn. I don't if I just never end up in the instance before a player does something stupid, they're programmed to move there, or if the area is too small, but there's no indication that the Tholians you're fighting are part of specific groups. You can kill dozens of Tholians before a single group objective is completed.

2. Getting kicked as soon you enter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
i can clear it with a weapons batt or ET. but that doesn't prevent me from getting hit with the weapons disable again a second later
I've used ET, and it lasts they way its supposed to for the duration of ET.
Join Date: July 29 2008
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,708
# 7
11-29-2012, 01:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
One of our goals when designing a major new enemy group like the Tholians, is getting players to try out new tactics and countermeasures against them. The fact that Tholian weaponry can drain and disable you should mean that things like Target Subsystem: Weapons and Emergency Power to Weapons become more valuable tools when facing off against them. Their Tholian Webs also make it a near-necessity to keep an AOE power like Photonic Shockwave, Tractor Beam Repulsors, or Beam Fire-at-Will on hand and ready to use.
Problem is no one likes to switch their boff layout just to fight different enemies. The same way no one likes to have to switch gear around depending on the enemy they're facing (and the reason why resistance specific shields see so little use). In the end people prefer to slog through without ideal tools and gear rather than suffer the hassle of switching gear and boffs around constantly.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 866
# 8
11-30-2012, 08:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by skyranger1414 View Post
Problem is no one likes to switch their boff layout just to fight different enemies. The same way no one likes to have to switch gear around depending on the enemy they're facing (and the reason why resistance specific shields see so little use). In the end people prefer to slog through without ideal tools and gear rather than suffer the hassle of switching gear and boffs around constantly.
I'd say people would like to switch boff layouts for different enemies, if they could do so with saved presets.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,465
# 9
11-29-2012, 06:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
In the end, it's all about making the game more interesting and fun.
Words that in no way describe the current situation of fighting tholians, especially given that 90% of their appearances are in situations where you're fighting them, and a clock.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,416
# 10
12-05-2012, 01:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
If the torpedo was an entity (targetable), then it will continue tracking you after you cloak unless you get >10km from it, or use Jam Sensors on it. Stealth on its own doesn't remove you from its target. This is true for any targetable torpedo, not just the Heavy Disruption Torpedoes.

As for the disables... keep in mind that Tholian ships have less shields and hull than any other space critter. So while they may disable you regularly, they shouldn't be, in the end, much more difficult than other space critters, due to this fragility.

One of our goals when designing a major new enemy group like the Tholians, is getting players to try out new tactics and countermeasures against them. The fact that Tholian weaponry can drain and disable you should mean that things like Target Subsystem: Weapons and Emergency Power to Weapons become more valuable tools when facing off against them. Their Tholian Webs also make it a near-necessity to keep an AOE power like Photonic Shockwave, Tractor Beam Repulsors, or Beam Fire-at-Will on hand and ready to use.

In the end, it's all about making the game more interesting and fun. Try something new when facing an enemy you think is too hard/annoying. You may be pleasantly surprised by the results.

Borticus, its one thing if you cloak while you are in mid battle. But if you cloak outside 10km and then approach, it's a different matter. Which is case in point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
As for the disables... keep in mind that Tholian ships have less shields and hull than any other space critter. So while they may disable you regularly, they shouldn't be, in the end, much more difficult than other space critters, due to this fragility.

Not seeing that fragility when my weapons are constantly being offline and being 1-shot by Captains.

Given the massive increase of disables with Season 7, we should've gotten a free respec token to invest in subsystem repair.

Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
One of our goals when designing a major new enemy group like the Tholians, is getting players to try out new tactics and countermeasures against them. The fact that Tholian weaponry can drain and disable you should mean that things like Target Subsystem: Weapons and Emergency Power to Weapons become more valuable tools when facing off against them. Their Tholian Webs also make it a near-necessity to keep an AOE power like Photonic Shockwave, Tractor Beam Repulsors, or Beam Fire-at-Will on hand and ready to use.

In the end, it's all about making the game more interesting and fun. Try something new when facing an enemy you think is too hard/annoying. You may be pleasantly surprised by the results.
While others have said it, some people have their prefered layouts, and most people don't bother with subsystem targeting since subsystem targeting is useless and people rather use more important abilities like Level 2 / 3 Torpedoes or Fire at Will.

Not to mention some people just don't want an army of BOFFs to have BOFF for every situation.

And when it comes to Engineering abilities, due to cooldowns, people aren't going to give up their Emergency Shields or hull heals. Because you guys made ships too fragile in the past year. Heck, Cruisers can hardly tank anymore, most people rather fly Escorts in doing damage.
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