Career Officer
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 294
this whole game wreaks of half finished content. I don't understand how you can be pleased with yourself for half assing everything from environments to code updates. You wonder why you can't figure out why invisible torpedoes happen? cuz you rushed your garbage out and you've gotten so far behind you can't figure out where it started. The players don't need to be your beta testers, you've got your own staff for that, not to mention, wait for it... test servers! I know you use them occasionally but when you ignore feedback on them and send stuff half completed to live servers that's just extremely unprofessional.

I make fun of you guys a lot, and ya know, I don't feel bad for that in the least. I don't know if its you feel like competition is forcing you to rush development or if overlord stahl and PWE execs are demanding that you meet unrealistic deadlines, but have some pride. Stand up for yourself and don't release content until its finished!

My god we've got a whole playable faction that's been half completed since it was launched and there's no sign that you're EVER going to finish it, yet you always manage to rush out something else that's not finished. We've got ships that don't have matching bridges, planets that looks worse than TOS planets... Infact... what in this game have you relased that's 100% completed? Anything? Granted I don't play every single bit of data that's offered in this game, but honestly... what is finished? What bugs have you actually fixed?

There's an old saying... do it right the first time and you wont have to do it again. Granted, your history has been meh, good enough. But really, imo, no its not good enough and I honestly doubt I'm alone in that assessment.

We play this game because we're trek fans. Not because we're cryptic fans or PWE fans. If you want to get us in your corner, you gotta meet us half way. If you drive us off, what are you going to do next? Looking at the games offered by cryptic and PWE, theres nothing i'm the least bit interested in playing so if you push me away, i'm completely done with your organization. Is that good business?

All I'm asking you to do is put in some effort. Create something that you can honestly say you're proud of. Don't continue to rush your work, because if you don't have a product that's worth buying, people wont buy it.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 61
# 2
12-09-2012, 02:36 AM
Don't tell them that... We will never get content!

They still havn't finished 'fixing' the pvp queues and the pvp in general that they started about 4 months or so after release.

I could put out a huge list of incomplete projects that we have but it would be a bit upsetting and shameful.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 352
# 3
12-09-2012, 03:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by darimund View Post
this whole game wreaks of half finished content. I don't understand how you can be pleased with yourself for half assing everything from environments to code updates. You wonder why you can't figure out why invisible torpedoes happen? cuz you rushed your garbage out and you've gotten so far behind you can't figure out where it started. The players don't need to be your beta testers, you've got your own staff for that, not to mention, wait for it... test servers! I know you use them occasionally but when you ignore feedback on them and send stuff half completed to live servers that's just extremely unprofessional.

I make fun of you guys a lot, and ya know, I don't feel bad for that in the least. I don't know if its you feel like competition is forcing you to rush development or if overlord stahl and PWE execs are demanding that you meet unrealistic deadlines, but have some pride. Stand up for yourself and don't release content until its finished!

My god we've got a whole playable faction that's been half completed since it was launched and there's no sign that you're EVER going to finish it, yet you always manage to rush out something else that's not finished. We've got ships that don't have matching bridges, planets that looks worse than TOS planets... Infact... what in this game have you relased that's 100% completed? Anything? Granted I don't play every single bit of data that's offered in this game, but honestly... what is finished? What bugs have you actually fixed?

There's an old saying... do it right the first time and you wont have to do it again. Granted, your history has been meh, good enough. But really, imo, no its not good enough and I honestly doubt I'm alone in that assessment.

We play this game because we're trek fans. Not because we're cryptic fans or PWE fans. If you want to get us in your corner, you gotta meet us half way. If you drive us off, what are you going to do next? Looking at the games offered by cryptic and PWE, theres nothing i'm the least bit interested in playing so if you push me away, i'm completely done with your organization. Is that good business?

All I'm asking you to do is put in some effort. Create something that you can honestly say you're proud of. Don't continue to rush your work, because if you don't have a product that's worth buying, people wont buy it.
Not sure how many mmo's you have been in, but for going on its 3rd year for a game that got dropped on there lap and being converted onto there engine slowly, they are not doing bad. Hell look at games with much larger studios and financial back where they are.. TOR barely could hold subs due to its issues they didnt even make a year before plunging F2P with one of the worst micro markets i have ever seen.

Better yet..have you seen Diablo 3 put out by mega developer BLIZZARD and all its issues and it literallyhas parts that did not make it to release yet. Heavy nerfing done to items in games and the destruction of what made Diablio 2 last so long with the now big push to aid casuals and blow off the elitist niche market the game series had.

STO for its age is doing pretty good. Not the best, but still above the grade. Most games do not start becoming strong until the 5th year. Hell eve online is on its 18th expansion since 2003 and only the last few expansions has it been fixing issues from 2003 to now.
Proud Fleet Commander in Garfon's Renegades!
Proud Leader of the Massive Chaos Group
Proud Listener of Subspace-Radio.net The Voice of Star Trek Online.
http://massivechaos.enjin.com/
Career Officer
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 294
# 4
12-09-2012, 04:50 AM
I've played mmo's going on 20 years. This one is really by far the worst hastily thrown together mountain of crap I've ever seen (and yes I played TOR, I was an EGA player). Devs are tossing out unfinished content and they start work on the next batch. whether they intend to come back and finish it or not, they don't. Every patch there's a new bug, some times it gets fixed but id say a good 75% of the time, they don't.

Where's the point that its deemed acceptable? Where's the polls of the people that play this game to show what they want to see done? I'm not saying the players need to decide what content is going to be developed, but instead of going off some stupid metrics, ask the people that play if they want to see the Klingon faction get finished or not. Ask the players if they want to have a proper bridge included with the new ship that's going to be released or not.

I'm fairly certain that the players responses will differ than a math equation (which I've been told a few times now that math isn't cryptic's strong suit). Instead what I see is players saying X change is no good, this is why.... reason reason reason reason, dev's say. ok, we'll do it anyway. I go... WTF

And then, players say, hey, heres a bug, such and such isn't working right. No response from devs. Players bring up bug again, no reply, or my personal favorite reply was "we have no idea how to fix it". Eventually, people get tired of bringing it up, bug goes unfixed and forgotten.

Honestly, if I had known that STO was going to be like it is, I never would have paid for a lifetime sub, or put any cash into this game at all. It's star trek... ish, and yes that's some what enjoyable, but beyond that... what value is there to this game in its current state? If I didn't have this life time sub, I would have quit playing a long time ago but I'm damn sure going to get what I deem to be my monies worth out of it.

What I really see is that cryptic and PWE are riding on the coat tails of the Star Trek franchise and have little interest in putting quality into their work. Yes, most of the ship models looks good, hell I've played around in 3ds max and have made ship models before. It's not that hard, but anything organic in this game... psh, garbage. Story and immersion... not really there. Is it any wonder Stahl said the average life expectancy of players is something like 32 days?

Once the ooo Star Trek wears off, people see this game for what it is, very unfinished and full of bugs and they quit playing and move on to something else.

I'm not expecting perfection, I just want an honest attempt to make this game something worth while, otherwise its just like TOR, a lousy attempt at cashing in on a dieing franchise. I want cryptic to show me they care about STO. I don't think that's too much to ask of them.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 352
# 5
12-09-2012, 05:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by darimund View Post
I've played mmo's going on 20 years. This one is really by far the worst hastily thrown together mountain of crap I've ever seen (and yes I played TOR, I was an EGA player). Devs are tossing out unfinished content and they start work on the next batch. whether they intend to come back and finish it or not, they don't. Every patch there's a new bug, some times it gets fixed but id say a good 75% of the time, they don't.

Where's the point that its deemed acceptable? Where's the polls of the people that play this game to show what they want to see done? I'm not saying the players need to decide what content is going to be developed, but instead of going off some stupid metrics, ask the people that play if they want to see the Klingon faction get finished or not. Ask the players if they want to have a proper bridge included with the new ship that's going to be released or not.

I'm fairly certain that the players responses will differ than a math equation (which I've been told a few times now that math isn't cryptic's strong suit). Instead what I see is players saying X change is no good, this is why.... reason reason reason reason, dev's say. ok, we'll do it anyway. I go... WTF

And then, players say, hey, heres a bug, such and such isn't working right. No response from devs. Players bring up bug again, no reply, or my personal favorite reply was "we have no idea how to fix it". Eventually, people get tired of bringing it up, bug goes unfixed and forgotten.

Honestly, if I had known that STO was going to be like it is, I never would have paid for a lifetime sub, or put any cash into this game at all. It's star trek... ish, and yes that's some what enjoyable, but beyond that... what value is there to this game in its current state? If I didn't have this life time sub, I would have quit playing a long time ago but I'm damn sure going to get what I deem to be my monies worth out of it.

What I really see is that cryptic and PWE are riding on the coat tails of the Star Trek franchise and have little interest in putting quality into their work. Yes, most of the ship models looks good, hell I've played around in 3ds max and have made ship models before. It's not that hard, but anything organic in this game... psh, garbage. Story and immersion... not really there. Is it any wonder Stahl said the average life expectancy of players is something like 32 days?

Once the ooo Star Trek wears off, people see this game for what it is, very unfinished and full of bugs and they quit playing and move on to something else.

I'm not expecting perfection, I just want an honest attempt to make this game something worth while, otherwise its just like TOR, a lousy attempt at cashing in on a dieing franchise. I want cryptic to show me they care about STO. I don't think that's too much to ask of them.
Not sure when you started Playing dude, But Actually the last Poll given was Romulans Or KDF.. Now we have Tau Dewa.. BY PLAYER request. Most Likely the romulan Playable Race is being Created as we speak for future Roll out. ALSO As for Klingon Faction. The Klingon Faction and I know People Don't want to here This, Was NOT created to be a full blown Faction, It was Created as an Advanced Faction to give more of a challenge in PVP to Higher Level Captains. It was Even Advertised as That. As for the Mess Remember This game Was never fully Finished by Perpetual Due to Bankruptcy. Cryptic Bought it and had to Convert the Codes from the Perpetual Engine Into what we have today. Is it an Excuse, No. Is it fact, Yes.

This Game also, Was not designed towards the Niche Player Experts of STO. But towards the Casual Player Base. Sadly the Casual Base Is paying for the game and buying Zen in bulk to put into the Game, the Exchange shows that. Theres at least 211,589 Zen on Exchange for Purchase and thats just in What can be seen for the top 5 lowest prices. Even with Lifetime players tossing there stipends on the market, Two grand worth of Zen on the market from what we can see. From the small Player base considering it stays around that amount, thats not bad for how old the game is.

As for Cryptic and how the Devs are, Frequent Channel : TTS, Hit the Actual bug report forums up. Most devs will Talk to you , especially if your participating on Tribble helping find stuff for them to fix. They also have there Orders. I can also create Spiffy images on Design programs, Even CAD. What I can't Do is Make them Fly all pretty in Space to thousands of players getting hit with countless weapons Fire, lighting and shading values added depending what is hitting it or flying over it. It's Easy to Rant on a forum about how a game is, Yet I see None of the player Base Actually Working for a Game Development Studio. All us Internet Warriors hold regular Jobs. Very Few are actually Designing Games that are playing by thousands hosted by a well known Publisher. I Personally Gave up trying to get into Game Design because the Technology Keeps Advancing and programming is way above me. I am Fairly Certain if any of us had Any skill in these Areas We would be playing the Games that we created and not someone Elses. BUT if you think you Can do the Job Better.. As the Game says.. If you want something done Right, Do it yourself. Cryptic Studios has been hiring new Devs for a while now. Go Apply. If your Worth your forum Post You get to actually be on there and show it. Be a player that Fixes the Game for us instead of being one that says eh, I can do a better job, and not be able to do it.
Proud Fleet Commander in Garfon's Renegades!
Proud Leader of the Massive Chaos Group
Proud Listener of Subspace-Radio.net The Voice of Star Trek Online.
http://massivechaos.enjin.com/
Career Officer
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 294
# 6
12-09-2012, 05:47 AM
firstly, I never said I could do it better. yes, I said I can make a ship model. However, the model artists aren't the ones creating the code to make the models fly.

As to the rest http://www.hard-light.net/. Here's a gaming community that took the source code from a 10 + year old space combat sim, revitalized it, fixed bugs, made it more modern and a butt load of fun. There's everyone from coders to voice actors, to modelers to texture artists that contribute to this ancient game. Hell, the guys that created the Diaspora campaign were hired by Bigpoint to create the models used in BSG Online. The point I'm not making very well about these guys is, they're all doing this in their own time, for no money and a ton of the things they have released are of superb quality. Check out the Diaspora game, it's amazing if you're a Battlestar Galactica fan. If you're not and like flying around in a space ship going PEW PEW, theres a ton of other campaigns that you can play that are equally amazing. When a problem crops up in their code, they do everything in their power to fix it, and they do so in a very reasonable amount of time.

Yes, FS2 isn't a MMO, so of course there are differences in game type, but at the core of STO, its a space combat sim/3rd/1st person shooter.

Point is, if these guys can do it for free and do it very well, I would expect equal quality of work from someone that's being paid to do it, especially from someone that I've given money to.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 12,137
# 7
12-09-2012, 06:02 AM
I've never played a single game ever, that met your criteria for being finished. Sorry, but it's just never happened.
HAIL HYDRA!

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
I can haz joystick!
MMOs aren't charities. Corporations are supposed to make a profit. It's what they do.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 352
# 8
12-09-2012, 06:05 AM
I know Freespace Very well, I have done minor Modding on it. I know many Open-source Games available that have Wicked good Graphics, You know the Difference between Open-Source and Publisher/Developer Based. Someone Already did the hard work for you and Created the Game, Created the mechanics and the Code. A Developer Already did the hard Work for hard-light. Interplay has been Doing games for years. How long did it take them to create Freespace? Hell, Let's go back to the Days of Descent, Descent 2, and the horrible Descent 3. It's Easy to Mod a Game, I did it on duke 3d, all the doom maps, Wolfenstien maps. Hell I have even done Modding on the New RAGE Engine. It's Easy to Mod, It's not easy to create and install new Technologies. A lot of the issues we have is due to new technologies being introduce into the Game. Another Difference In Open-Source Games is the Entire Community Get Involved. Everyone has access to the Code, Everyone can change edit and submit Code. On a Single Player Game, this is Safe and Easy to do, Especially once the game and company went bye bye and got swallowed up. Cryptic Is still in Business, If they opened there code up to the World it would be Suicide for them. It's easy for a community of hundreds to work on a game, but if you have 20 people dealing with thousands, ontop of having to make it work with EVERYONES systems and everyones different modifications. Freespace had Standard Models to use, there was no specialty, You did not have to worry a bout X player did this Design and is now being attacked by Y player.. Explosions don't appear on y players custom Ship. X players unchanged ship works perfect. Multiplayer Games are an Entirely Different Breed then Single Players games.
Look how many people try to do open-source MMO's, Not many full blown designed ones out there.. Profit has to be maintained and bringing in money is the main goal. Open-source games Do not have to pay for Server load, Technicians on staff, Thats all Free by the community. You want to bring the Hundreds of STO players to work on STO for Free. Pay for STO's Server Farms while increasing Cryptics Net profitability. I am SURE the Devs would not Mind hundreds of players to help as long as it maintained them making profit.
Proud Fleet Commander in Garfon's Renegades!
Proud Leader of the Massive Chaos Group
Proud Listener of Subspace-Radio.net The Voice of Star Trek Online.
http://massivechaos.enjin.com/
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 737
# 9
12-09-2012, 11:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dariusmajere View Post
Not sure when you started Playing dude, But Actually the last Poll given was Romulans Or KDF.. Now we have Tau Dewa.. BY PLAYER request. Most Likely the romulan Playable Race is being Created as we speak for future Roll out. ALSO As for Klingon Faction. The Klingon Faction and I know People Don't want to here This, Was NOT created to be a full blown Faction, It was Created as an Advanced Faction to give more of a challenge in PVP to Higher Level Captains. It was Even Advertised as That. As for the Mess Remember This game Was never fully Finished by Perpetual Due to Bankruptcy. Cryptic Bought it and had to Convert the Codes from the Perpetual Engine Into what we have today. Is it an Excuse, No. Is it fact, Yes.

Dear Cryptic user Dariusmajere;

You Are Wrong!

The KDF Faction WAS supposed to have been as complete as the Federation faction at release.. And, the KDF faction won the pole. Players voted to see KDF finished first.

Lets give you a fact checking here shall we.. ((and I do belive a few of us have tried to get this across to you before)) Original STO Developer.. It Was Not Cryptic.. they picked up the licence to the IP after another studio went under trying to create STO, adapted what they could to the cryptic Game engine (same one as used for Champions Online, and City Of Hero's-now defunct) And developed the rest, and to give them some benifit of the doubt here, and a damd tite time scedule with zero wiggle room. They were on a deadline of release by or loose the licence.

The KDF was not finished as the deadline for release came up.. Cryptic HAD to release the game when they did 3 years ago or LOSE THE RIGHTS TO THE IP period, end of story.. Cryptic ran out of development time. They tideied up where they coould so there wasn't to many ragged ends and released. The KDF was supposed to have been a full faction.. instead they got left as a "Monster Play" faction. The Executive Developer Daniel Stahl was/is an Age of Conan player so was familiar with the concept of a Monster play faction. KDF Was Not Nor Ever Ment To Be A Monster Play Faction... it just happened to be where things broke at release. Stahl was comfortable with that as monster play was something he understood. Even though for the Klingon fans it definatly was NOT sufficiently good. Thats why so many KDF player left the game after a year of play. And why it was down damd near to KDF players with life time meberships keeping the faith for the most part.

At one point KDF oriented players made up less then 1/5th of the player base.. but of those KDF players more then half held life time memberships. And people wonder why we voice our anger so loudly..I'd think it would be pretty obvious.

The diehard KDF players have been P.O'd since release about promises made for KDF content that were either never delivered on or whoafully under delivered on. Ina redcent ask cryptic Stahl stated for the record good things for KDF in season 8. We KDF players have heard THAT song before and serve notice that this time it had best be for real of there will be hell to pay.

The Original poster though is very correct about a great many things. Half hearted work in too many area's.. poor editing of joint mission dialogs to reflect properly the difference between a Federation and a KDF point of view.. Bugs that go un-fixed or ignored forever.

Big Example. Shield Doubleing Exploit (now dead, reason why in a moment) For the first 2 years of the game there was an exploit that if in a PvP match you had taken shield damage and werr packing an extra set of shield you could replace the "damaged" set during combat, and the game engine would not release the previous shield number.. it would in effect act as an entirely second set of shield under the primary set, both shield would repair at the same rate. This issue was noted and complained about for two years, up untill a developer came onto a Video podcast known as STO'ked and had it shown to him.
(note that said dev later took the job of championing pvP in the studio.. and shortly there after left the studio and no longer works there.. I guess the boss's hates to be publicly embarassed....even if it was the bosses own fault. No one know if the dev in question was teminated or left on his own.. companies NEVER tell the truth about this sort of matter.. especially if it might become a PR issue) NOTE that it took the bug being displayed before THOUSANDS of viewers on an internationally viewed video cast to get the issue addressed and fixed.. This exploit took two years to be fixed, even though there were players on the games forum BRAGGING about how they were taking advantage of it. Does Cryptic listen to it's players? Sometimes, yes they do. But it seems, only when forced to do so. I could be wrong, but it sure doesn't feel like I'm wrong.

The Original Poster has made some very telling points and is to be commended for noticing them with out having spent the last three years playing STO.

STO is a 3rd rate MMO at BEST, that is only still here because of it being a Star Trek game... without the trek label it would have likely been shut down in the games second year because there wouldn't have been sufficient players around to continue..

I have been playing MMO's since there were MMO's.. and considering I'm in my 50's.. I have a whole lot of experience with computer gaming. More then two decades.

I also happen to be a die hard Klingon fan and player... and unlike you sir I HAVE been paying attention to the facts, and not some wishfull thinking goblety **** based on rumor and assumption. And I have been playing this game since beta, and I do just happen to have a life time membership (which I got as a leap of faith..silly me, should have known better. skinned the hell out of my nose on this one)

If your going to defend cryptic studio's record then at least get your facts strait will you?

I don't object to your defending them.. I have even done so from time to time.. but DO NOT promulgate lies when your doing it. Your not doing Cryptic any favors, and you do in fact make the studio look even WORSE....Dude!

Khemaraa, The Iron Hand sends

P.S. Borticas was a fan, and in fact Co-Hosted STO'ked. The show mentioned was his very last other then as a guest, as he was offered a job by cryptic studios due to much of the work he did during the run of STO'ked. Borticus is indeed a fan of the game, and a player of the game besides being one of the studio's Dev's now. And he's one of the very best friends we the players could have on the inside of the door into cryptic studios. He doesn't always tell everything, but he will not lie to the players about a game issue.. He'll either lay it out for you or not say anything. But he does deliver the strait dope. The man has got integrity that I for one happen to trust. He's not let me down yet, and if he has, he's the only one that knows it.
Release 8.5 "STO The Next Generation"

Let the happy old bug stomping commence, along with refinement toward enhancing each factions play experience!

Last edited by oldkhemaraa; 12-09-2012 at 11:20 PM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 352
# 10
12-10-2012, 01:04 AM
Well sir.. Please check your numbers on that poll again... I believe you are drastically mistaken.. 30% for romulan 19% for kdf.. Not sure what information your going off of..

http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/sh...d.php?t=379951

Also in the ask cryptic q&a on Raptr it was stated that the kdf faction was built for a higher level pvp faction and was not designed as a full faction. But they will be working if the numbers are there into fleshing it out. Stahl has said he is working to petition it fleshed out since he feels that might breathe life into it. But with the federation bringing in the paycheck they get priority. Also the packaging for sto shows differently. I also was in the beta but seeing as the game was did not bother subbing to it and stuck with Eve Online. Aside for your gripes being a kdf player they have kept with what was advertised at shipping.
When i get on an actual pc and not the nexus 7 i will grab all the quotes from the q&a's and post the links to them and you can post your counters quotes and official sources as well.

As for spreading lies i go by the information stated by stahl, by the q&a's and by the advertising on the box. Unless you can as this forums is famous for saying show the link from an Cryptic dev stating otherwise...
Proud Fleet Commander in Garfon's Renegades!
Proud Leader of the Massive Chaos Group
Proud Listener of Subspace-Radio.net The Voice of Star Trek Online.
http://massivechaos.enjin.com/

Last edited by dariusmajere; 12-10-2012 at 02:09 AM.
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:05 PM.