Ensign
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 27
# 1 DPS and You: What to expect...
01-01-2013, 02:33 PM
STO is a great game. We all love it, and spend a lot of time playing it. But what about realistic dps expectations? We all know that escorts and raiders are designed to pump out as much damage as they can in as short a time as possible. Cruisers do less damage, but generally have more HP and survivability, while Science vessels can fill both rolls, depending on their build, Boff and Doff skill, etc. I have seen a Vesta out-dps a tac retrofit. (was impressive to watch too )

There will always be Captains of every background that want to push the boundaries to see what they can accomplish, but there should be a baseline expectation. What is realistic to expect from the different classes of starship?
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,605
# 2
01-01-2013, 05:29 PM
Redacted. Enjoy.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Why the Devs can't make PvE content harder. <--- DR proved me wrong!

Last edited by hereticknight085; 01-02-2013 at 02:02 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,283
# 3
01-01-2013, 06:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hereticknight085 View Post
Eng-Science Ship = Medium to low damage output. Ability to tank well as a sci ship, ability to keep weapons and aux high, but not really a good idea. Downside is that most Engis aren't skilled to naturally increase sci damage, and have no way to amplify the sci damage other than flooding power to aux, which usually isn't enough.
I disagree with your statement from personal experience, I have an eng in a fleet Nova specced for a fleet Excelsior who can use the Nova to lock down a target and dish out a god 1500 DPH (about 6k DPV) when I max it out AND is a good enough tank to give the old Excelsior a run for its money through a combo of decent shield tank and superior hull tank.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,605
# 4
01-02-2013, 12:13 AM
Redacted. Enjoy.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Why the Devs can't make PvE content harder. <--- DR proved me wrong!

Last edited by hereticknight085; 01-02-2013 at 02:03 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,140
# 5
01-02-2013, 01:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hereticknight085 View Post
And I disagree with your disagreement. I have an engi in a Fleet Recon Science Vessel. And even though it's amusing, it's not much more than that. You can drain well, and you can snare well, but overall you WILL fail in PvP with one of those, even despite your added tankiness. Because you can be an unbreakable brick, but that's all you'll be.
you know, that's exactly right for PVP...and personally i think an engi in a sci vessel works just great. lots of power can only work to the advantage of a sci ship. more aux power, the better most sci abilitys become...this combined with increased survivability is just what you need in pvp.
while you find it amusing to drain and shut down other ships, that is actually really effective too, and is a hell of an annoyance to others. And doing so with an engi or sci is no different. Both sci and engi can be quite effective in sci vessel, i would say both fill the spot perfectly, but with slightly different benefits for each. not better, just different.

an unbreakable brick, that crowd controls and shuts down enemy ship is a great asset for a PVP team...far from fail in my opinion. i mean you list basically everything a sci ship can do in pvp yourself, but you draw the conclusion that it is fail, this i can't understand.
Go pro or go home
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,605
# 6
01-02-2013, 12:37 PM
Redacted. Enjoy.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Why the Devs can't make PvE content harder. <--- DR proved me wrong!

Last edited by hereticknight085; 01-02-2013 at 02:03 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 891
# 7
01-02-2013, 01:40 PM
3k for sci/cruisers; 3.5k for carriers; 4k for escorts. Those are the bare minimum before other people are having to pick up your slack to make optionals. I'd say 70% of pug players don't reach those easily obtainable marks, many of them of which are complaining about other players in a particularly popular thread on these forums.

Last edited by xantris; 01-02-2013 at 01:43 PM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 139
# 8
01-02-2013, 02:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by xantris View Post
3k for sci/cruisers; 3.5k for carriers; 4k for escorts. Those are the bare minimum before other people are having to pick up your slack to make optionals. I'd say 70% of pug players don't reach those easily obtainable marks, many of them of which are complaining about other players in a particularly popular thread on these forums.
Curious about these numbers... I think they are fairly low. For example, without activating any skills:
Unbonused Mk XII turrets (skilled but without consoles) will be around 450 DPS each.
Unbonused Mk XII beam bank around 650 DPS
Kinetic Cutting Beam: 700 DPS
Carrier Hangar Bays: 1000 DPS per bay (with all pets deployed)... normally a bit higher, but they come out to around this in the long run when you consider the relaunch time, etc. Keep them on "Attack" mode if you are counting them in your ship's DPS. Varies with playstyle and type of hangar pet, but 1000 DPS/hangar bay is a quite conservative, attainable value
Unbonused Mk XII quantum torp (skilled but without consoles) around 425 DPS

I say all this above to get to this point: consider a cruiser with a forward torp, 3 beams forward, 3 turrets and a kinetic cutting beam in the back. That's well over 4000 DPS without tac consoles or critical hits or anything.

As a point of reference, here's a breakdown of my recluse carrier (could do the same with an atrox, because i'm not adding in skills, CPT powers, etc in the values... just in-space tooltip values). I have good gear equipped (2x Purp Mk XII Quant Consoles, borg/rom/rule 62 console, 2-piece adapted MACO set bonus):
2x Mk XII Quantum Torps with 3x Purple PWO Doffs. Effective ROF is 5.4 torps per 8 secs (if you are curious about the math say so and I'll make a separate post about PWOs ROF here)... tooltip DPS is 747.6, expected pre-skill, pre-BoFF skill, pre-critical strike DPS for these torpedoes: 4037
1x Mk XI Plasma Beam. 596 DPS (will be higher with the MkXII rom experimental beam)
1x Kinetic Cutting Beam. 720 DPS
2x Mk XII Romulan Plasma Turrets. 458 DPS each. 917 for the pair.
2x Hangar Bays. 1000 DPS each. 2000 for the pair.

So... for a carrier, this is 8200 DPS before CPT abilities, BoFF abilities, or critical hits. Also, you might see a bit less if you can't keep pointed at the target for the torps (so lower in PVP). I could push these values higher with adding the rom. experimental beam or some romulan plasma science consoles.

Even if you quibble with this value or that value, any decently-fit ship, flown by any captain, should be able to get well over 5 or 6k DPS (pre-captain skill/boff ability/critical hits). Really good ones should be able to get in the 8-10k DPS range.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,605
# 9
01-02-2013, 02:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by heresincebeta View Post
Curious about these numbers... I think they are fairly low. For example, without activating any skills:
Unbonused Mk XII turrets (skilled but without consoles) will be around 450 DPS each.
Unbonused Mk XII beam bank around 650 DPS
Kinetic Cutting Beam: 700 DPS
Carrier Hangar Bays: 1000 DPS per bay (with all pets deployed)... normally a bit higher, but they come out to around this in the long run when you consider the relaunch time, etc. Keep them on "Attack" mode if you are counting them in your ship's DPS. Varies with playstyle and type of hangar pet, but 1000 DPS/hangar bay is a quite conservative, attainable value
Unbonused Mk XII quantum torp (skilled but without consoles) around 425 DPS

I say all this above to get to this point: consider a cruiser with a forward torp, 3 beams forward, 3 turrets and a kinetic cutting beam in the back. That's well over 4000 DPS without tac consoles or critical hits or anything.

As a point of reference, here's a breakdown of my recluse carrier (could do the same with an atrox, because i'm not adding in skills, CPT powers, etc in the values... just in-space tooltip values). I have good gear equipped (2x Purp Mk XII Quant Consoles, borg/rom/rule 62 console, 2-piece adapted MACO set bonus):
2x Mk XII Quantum Torps with 3x Purple PWO Doffs. Effective ROF is 5.4 torps per 8 secs (if you are curious about the math say so and I'll make a separate post about PWOs ROF here)... tooltip DPS is 747.6, expected pre-skill, pre-BoFF skill, pre-critical strike DPS for these torpedoes: 4037
1x Mk XI Plasma Beam. 596 DPS (will be higher with the MkXII rom experimental beam)
1x Kinetic Cutting Beam. 720 DPS
2x Mk XII Romulan Plasma Turrets. 458 DPS each. 917 for the pair.
2x Hangar Bays. 1000 DPS each. 2000 for the pair.

So... for a carrier, this is 8200 DPS before CPT abilities, BoFF abilities, or critical hits. Also, you might see a bit less if you can't keep pointed at the target for the torps (so lower in PVP). I could push these values higher with adding the rom. experimental beam or some romulan plasma science consoles.

Even if you quibble with this value or that value, any decently-fit ship, flown by any captain, should be able to get well over 5 or 6k DPS (pre-captain skill/boff ability/critical hits). Really good ones should be able to get in the 8-10k DPS range.
Problem with your math: Your DPS values are about double what they should be.

You aren't taking power drain or range or target resistance into account. You also aren't taking misses or crits into account, nor are you taking in the variance in damage into account. Those are all VERY important.

Also your 1000 dps per hangar bay? Maybe with b'rels, fer'jais, or B'rothls, but your average fighters are only hitting for maybe 150-200 tops. And they aren't constantly attacking either. You also need to take into account fighters being destroyed, etc.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Why the Devs can't make PvE content harder. <--- DR proved me wrong!
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 891
# 10
01-02-2013, 02:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by heresincebeta View Post
Curious about these numbers... I think they are fairly low. For example, without activating any skills:
Unbonused Mk XII turrets (skilled but without consoles) will be around 450 DPS each.
Unbonused Mk XII beam bank around 650 DPS
Kinetic Cutting Beam: 700 DPS
Carrier Hangar Bays: 1000 DPS per bay (with all pets deployed)... normally a bit higher, but they come out to around this in the long run when you consider the relaunch time, etc. Keep them on "Attack" mode if you are counting them in your ship's DPS. Varies with playstyle and type of hangar pet, but 1000 DPS/hangar bay is a quite conservative, attainable value
Unbonused Mk XII quantum torp (skilled but without consoles) around 425 DPS

I say all this above to get to this point: consider a cruiser with a forward torp, 3 beams forward, 3 turrets and a kinetic cutting beam in the back. That's well over 4000 DPS without tac consoles or critical hits or anything.

As a point of reference, here's a breakdown of my recluse carrier (could do the same with an atrox, because i'm not adding in skills, CPT powers, etc in the values... just in-space tooltip values). I have good gear equipped (2x Purp Mk XII Quant Consoles, borg/rom/rule 62 console, 2-piece adapted MACO set bonus):
2x Mk XII Quantum Torps with 3x Purple PWO Doffs. Effective ROF is 5.4 torps per 8 secs (if you are curious about the math say so and I'll make a separate post about PWOs ROF here)... tooltip DPS is 747.6, expected pre-skill, pre-BoFF skill, pre-critical strike DPS for these torpedoes: 4037
1x Mk XI Plasma Beam. 596 DPS (will be higher with the MkXII rom experimental beam)
1x Kinetic Cutting Beam. 720 DPS
2x Mk XII Romulan Plasma Turrets. 458 DPS each. 917 for the pair.
2x Hangar Bays. 1000 DPS each. 2000 for the pair.

So... for a carrier, this is 8200 DPS before CPT abilities, BoFF abilities, or critical hits. Also, you might see a bit less if you can't keep pointed at the target for the torps (so lower in PVP). I could push these values higher with adding the rom. experimental beam or some romulan plasma science consoles.

Even if you quibble with this value or that value, any decently-fit ship, flown by any captain, should be able to get well over 5 or 6k DPS (pre-captain skill/boff ability/critical hits). Really good ones should be able to get in the 8-10k DPS range.
The only real way to measure DPS is a parser, your way leaves out a lot of factors.

But...

Yes, they are low... Minimums actually. You need approximately 15k DPS to get the average optional in an eSTF. So each player needs to be doing at least 3k damage to pull their weight. You add a bit more to escorts because that's almost all they do, and because a lot of parsed damage is AoE that gets instantly healed by generators and such.. I personally do between 10-14k in my tac escort, and the only way I fail to get optionals is if I'm not paying attention or if someone does something purposefully to fail the mission(like blowing probes on the opposite side in ISE) But as long as people aren't a detriment, that's good enough in my book.

Last edited by xantris; 01-02-2013 at 02:40 PM.
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