Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 117
# 1 Ship operation idea
01-11-2013, 12:05 AM
Ive thrown this idea around quite a bit and it seems to fall on deaf ears so I will make a topic on it and see what people think. Everyone Ive talked to said this idea sounds interesting and some even think it would be nice to impliment. It wouldnt require any drastic changes to the game just a simple change for every ship.

The reason I came up with this idea is this. Every time I am out flying my starship I see nothing but the same few classes of starships everywheres and it just breaks immersion for me in the sense that if we have this many new high tech starships why are we having trouble fighting wars with the klingons, the undine, the true way, and even the dominion. I also think that quite a few of these captains would much rather fly a different ship if only it was a viable option at end game.

My idea basically would make lower tier starships viable at end game. That means I could take a NX class starship and use it at end level and while it will be a great challenge it would still be a viable option vs being a one shot kill target for any of the big boys.

What I propose is that when it comes to console arrangement keep the console arrangement in the case of the NX as an example keep the 1 engineering, 1 science and 2 tactical. The thing I would change is the rank. Instead of them all being Ensign ability consoles they now have no rank. When you place a Ensign in the slot for that console you have a Ensign console. When you promote that officer your console changes to the rank of the officer. This basically means that the consoles have a max ability to be able to have four seperate abilities per bridge officer and everyone of them will be useable.

Now some would probably say "but that would make ships over powered". Sure it probably would make ships over powered but I dont think that would be a problem. A NX class starship with maxed out bridge officers would have abilities avaliable to her that would make her more adaptive to incursions and more able to survive without having her hull or shields boosted up. The Constitution and Constitution Refit wouldnt need a T5 because you could have abilities that could make her survive damage like a T5 but still have the correct weak hull of a old starship.

Now if it is needed to reduce the chance to have a crack shot team of bridge officers all at commander level and having 16 different abilities on a standard starship with 4 bridge officers. Then I also propose this work around. To work around this without limiting the console arrangement would be to have a limit on how many bridge officers you can have of each rank for each ship. Say the NX ship as an example again, you can have 1 captain (you), 1 commander, and up to 2 Lt. Commanders. This means for the NX you can customize the abillities to how you play you could have a Science commander for science based captains and builds and two Lt. Commanders for tactical and engineering and now you have between the three officers 10 abilities vs a max possibility of 12 abilities.

I think both ideas I provided above could go a long way opening up all tiers of ships for play without actually bringing every ship to T5 level. With more abilities we can do more with our ships reguardless of how much hull or shields it has. For a NX we could heal our shields or keep our shields up while buffing our weapons at the same time. Sure a NX wouldnt be a powerful ship but it wouldnt be a ship that would blow up if you just looked at it like it would now. In the fleet I am in I went head to head with a new fleet member that we all are helping to build his Odyssey up. I went up against his Odyssey with Reman prototype shields (best he has currently) and I used my Constitution Refit with three Mk XI retrofit phaser arrays and a Mk XI common transphasic torpedo. My shields were constantly going up and down but reverse shields helped keep them up and I was able to dish some damage to his shields but it wasnt enough to take him out. Just like it would be in real life. Now if I had more abilities I could have kept my shields up easier and I could have dished slightly more damage with fire at will II or even beam overload I. Odds of me taking out this Odyssey with a Constitution Refit even with the console arrangement proposal I put forward above would be slim to none in 1 on 1 combat. Even with more abilities I would still run a very high risk of being worn down by this Odyssey to the point where I would lose in the end always. Just like Tasha mentioned in "Yesterdays Enterprise" the Enterprise D had better cooling for the weapons than the Ambassador meaning she could stay in a fight longer. Well the Odyssey would stay in the fight longer with better technology and being a bigger stronger ship.

I dont want to have this be a huge wall of text that no one reads so those are my proposals and I want to ask everyones opinion on what they think and if they think it would be something they would want to see in game. If its something they want to see in game maybe if this gets enough attention maybe it would gain the attention of some devs to look into implimenting this idea.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 130
# 2
01-11-2013, 12:12 AM
Would it not be better if say, when you increase the rank of your BOFF's, then the console stats of whatever console they are using increases by a fixed amount?, like when you install a device with stats that can be modified by your character abilities, i think players would be more familiar with that arrangement, and also maybe it would be easier to implement.
Also, i think that we should not be able to "over-equip" old ships, i mean, we should be able to upgrade the station, but not to add more stations, that would be the difference between your proposal, and a refit ship, and would also make both things able to co-exists.
Yuxtapuestoelmono, not "Lmrt"
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 117
# 3
01-11-2013, 12:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lmrt View Post
Would it not be better if say, when you increase the rank of your BOFF's, then the console stats of whatever console they are using increases by a fixed amount?, like when you install a device with stats that can be modified by your character abilities, i think players would be more familiar with that arrangement, and also maybe it would be easier to implement.
Also, i think that we should not be able to "over-equip" old ships, i mean, we should be able to upgrade the station, but not to add more stations, that would be the difference between your proposal, and a refit ship, and would also make both things able to co-exists.
That is basically correct. With this setup your consoles dont have a set rank. Your bridge officer determins that and based off the fact that starfleet would never have 4 commanders on the same bridge at the same time, the limiting factor would be in what officers you use. The consoles will how ever remain unchange. The NX for example would still have just 1 engineering, 1 science, and 2 tactical consoles. If a refit of the NX was to come out then what could happen is the console quanity could change, it allows the devs the ability to take and add another engineering or science console but the NX and the NX refit would be two seperate ships and the refit would without a doubt be stronger than the plain NX.

For instance a NX with a Mk XII very rare neutronium alloy console, a Mk XII very rare Field Generator, and a grappler hook / Mk XII very rare phaser relay console would be a decent ship for its class. With the chance to have up to 12 abilities via bridge officers you could keep the shields up and make the weapons do more damage via overload or fire at will. Now if a NX refit was released with two engineering consoles, one science, and three tactical well now you can squeeze in another neutronium alloy console which would improve the damage resistance of the hull and add in another phaser relay to bump up your phaser damage. Both ships are the same ship for instance but the refit would still be stronger than the non refit model reguardless of what abilities you have because you have more console slots.

In reality a console on a star ship in star trek universe is not limited itself, the capability of said console is only limited by the officer using it. Data has encrypted Enterprise D`s and E`s computer quicker and more secure than a human would have but the computer wasnt limited in that aspect. Starships captains have performed manuvers with starships using different techniques that the consoles did not prevent. A officer on the Enterprise D took control of the ship via the holodeck and made first contact with an alien race outside of our galaxy. I think theres enough evidence to show that consoles are not the limiting factor but the officer using them.

If and I do agree there should need to be a limit placed to prevent ships becoming way too powerful, the limit should be placed on the officer. Why would starfleet allow my Galaxy X to be commanded by a full bridge crew of all Commander ranked officers? I doubt starfleet would allow that. Even our own military doesnt have bridge crews on navy warships all at maximum rank.

While it would take some figuring out and some work to do depending on how this game is coded, I think it could be done easier than just simply releasing all these T-5 ships and buffing the hulls up. Lots of people are against the T-5 constitution because they dont think a constitution should have hull as strong as a galaxy class ship for instance. Well this idea I came up with is brilliant in the sense that what could be considered a T5 constitution would actually have the shields and hull of a T2 constitution but just has the abilities of a T5 via bridge officer abilities.

I dont expect everyone to go for this but it is a good compromise to allow people to use starships they love and want to use at end game and not be frustrated by constantly being one shot killed by simple enemies. After all we know enemies level up with us is their always 1 - 2 levels above your current level.



Also sure you could have it setup where the console levels are not changed but the higher rank your officer is the more of a increase said console provides. Say a +5% base console would provide up to +15% with a commander level officer. That would work too, but a player would still be hendered by lack of abilities on those lower tier ships. The NX for instance only has 3 abilities it can do, 4 if you count the grappler console.

Last edited by milner62; 01-11-2013 at 12:41 AM.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 130
# 4
01-11-2013, 12:53 AM
Well technically, if they implement your idea, there in fact will not be any T5 Connie, what we will have is the ability to use the "lower" ships on higher level situations, then, what will happen is that the old "big" ships would become the new "small ships", like saying, the Connie would become the new "frigate", the Cheyenne/Stargazer/Excelsior/etc. classes would become the new light cruisers, the Galaxy/Sovereign/etc. classes would become the new medium cruisers, the star cruisers would be the new heavy cruisers, the odyssey the new exploration, and so on.
Yuxtapuestoelmono, not "Lmrt"
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 961
# 5
01-11-2013, 12:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by milner62 View Post
Now if it is needed to reduce the chance to have a crack shot team of bridge officers all at commander level and having 16 different abilities on a standard starship with 4 bridge officers. Then I also propose this work around. To work around this without limiting the console arrangement would be to have a limit on how many bridge officers you can have of each rank for each ship. Say the NX ship as an example again, you can have 1 captain (you), 1 commander, and up to 2 Lt. Commanders. This means for the NX you can customize the abillities to how you play you could have a Science commander for science based captains and builds and two Lt. Commanders for tactical and engineering and now you have between the three officers 10 abilities vs a max possibility of 12 abilities.
Your "workaround" basically changes your idea from this:

- Fix combat by making every bridge station Commander-level

To this:

- Keep bridge stations rank-limited, but make every station universal

I don't know if you've played KDF before, but the second solution basically makes every ship a Bird of Prey except in relation to stats.

That certainly works, but you've gone from changing everything to changing very little in the space of one idea.

I can understand your desire to remove ship tiers from the game so that players can just fly what they please, but short of asking for a new game, it's probably not going to happen. It's not a "deaf ears" thing, it's a practicality thing.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 117
# 6
01-11-2013, 01:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by unangbangkay View Post
Your "workaround" basically changes your idea from this:

- Fix combat by making every bridge station Commander-level

To this:

- Keep bridge stations rank-limited, but make every station universal

I don't know if you've played KDF before, but the second solution basically makes every ship a Bird of Prey except in relation to stats.

That certainly works, but you've gone from changing everything to changing very little in the space of one idea.

I can understand your desire to remove ship tiers from the game so that players can just fly what they please, but short of asking for a new game, it's probably not going to happen. It's not a "deaf ears" thing, it's a practicality thing.
No, you do not have universal stations you still have for the NX being the example 1 tactical, 1 engineering, and 1 science station. The different is instead of them all being the same rank you would have the ability to hand select what your ship is going to be used for. Say you are limited to having 1 commander and 2 lt commanders on the bridge of your NX. You can have a science commander a engineering commander or even a tactical commander meaning what you pick is going to determin what abilities you are more leaning towards. Its not about making all consoles universal meaning you can put 3 tactical officers on the ship you would still be restricted just like all federation ships on how many science/tactical/engineering officers you can have on bridge the difference is you can choose which console would be a higher rank by picking which officer you want to be the highest rank.

So its not about changing everything its about changing two things at most. Changing the bridge to where consoles now are still setup same way but they have no limit set on them. They all can operate commander level abilities and to keep a starship from being too over powered by having too many abilities the bridge officer`s rank would be restricted. Each ship based off its design would be restricted.

lets use the Galaxy X as an example it has 2 tactical officers, 2 engineering officers and 1 science officer. The rank of the bridge officer consoles are as follows.

x1 Ensign tactical
x1 LT tactical
x1 Lt. Commander engineering
x1 Commander engineering
x1 LT science

Ok you basically have 1 commander, 1 Lt. Commander, 2 Lieutenant`s, and 1 ensign on your bridge. Ok instead of having the consoles dictate the rank and you let the officers dictate the rank you can now say ok the Galaxy X bridge can only accelt 1 commander, 1 lt commander, 2 lieutenants, and 1 ensign. That means I could set up my bridge with in limits any different number of ways such as.

x1 Commander Tactical
x1 Lt Commander Tactical
x2 LT Engineering
x1 Ensign Science

or if I was wanting a science/healer build I could go

x1 ensign tactical
x1 LT tactical
x1 LT Engineering
x1 Lt Commander Engineering
x1 Commander Science



Its not simply making consoles universal in the sense like the borg universal console and you can place it anywheres you want. You still have console restrictions and you still have restrictions on the number of console stations and their types. The only restriction removal would be done to the rank that is associated with the console itself and put it on the bridge officers. Instead of cruisers only being geared towards engineering or science because they have higher rank consoles in those areas it would open up cruisers to be tactical ships too by placing high ranking tactical officers on the ship instead and having the other stations with lower ranking officers.

This is how ships in the real world and how ships in Star Trek operates. If you have a warship your going to have more experianced tactical officers over science or engineering. If you have a science ship or a hospital ship you would have higher ranking officers in the science field than you would in tactical.

In the end the idea is not about making them all Commander level consoles, its about making them all capable of handling commander level abilities making them universal rank wise. That means if you place a Lt commander tactical officer at a tactical console they will do Lt commander abilities. If you remove him and put a Commander there he will do commander abilities. The point about having restrictions on the crew itself is to limit how strong you can be but allow you to deside what console types get what rank allowing you to custom tailor each ship to your play style or what you want it to do but still with in restrictions.

Last edited by milner62; 01-11-2013 at 01:14 AM.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 961
# 7
01-11-2013, 01:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by milner62 View Post
*snip*.
It's also diluting the differences between the different ships, and in turn reducing the value of the choice.


BTW: let's not get our terminology confused:

Bridge Station: Where you get your bridge officer powers from
Bridge Console: Where you put phaser relays, the borg console, etc.

For example. Take the non-Refit, non-Fleet Star Cruiser vs. the non-Refit non-Fleet Assault Cruiser. They have identical bridge layout EXCEPT for the ensign station. On the AC it's for tactical, on the SC it's for science.

If we go with your solution plus the "officer rank quota" workaround, there is NO difference between the two ships except in crew number, inertia rating, and console arrangement (AC = 750 crew, 3 tactical consoles 2 science consoles, SC = 1000 crew 2 tactical 3 science).

That difference is far too small because crew makes very little difference in a fight. Consoles make a difference, but not enough of one when there aren't any other things given. At that point there is no "Star Cruiser" or "Assault Cruiser", just "Tier 5 Cruiser".

As it stands the bridge officer layout is one of the defining features of any given ship in STO gameplay terms. Diluting that reduces the value of EVERY ship, including the lockbox, C-store, whatever.

Don't get me wrong, there's value in having a tier-less equipment design. The Secret World uses cosmetic differences only on gear and I like having adaptive moddable gear in The Old Republic, but even with the workaround your solution is a step too far in the direction of making ship choice purely aesthetic.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 117
# 8
01-11-2013, 01:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by unangbangkay View Post
It's also diluting the differences between the different ships, and in turn reducing the value of the choice.


BTW: let's not get our terminology confused:

Bridge Station: Where you get your bridge officer powers from
Bridge Console: Where you put phaser relays, the borg console, etc.

For example. Take the non-Refit, non-Fleet Star Cruiser vs. the non-Refit non-Fleet Assault Cruiser. They have identical bridge layout EXCEPT for the ensign station. On the AC it's for tactical, on the SC it's for science.

If we go with your solution plus the "officer rank quota" workaround, there is NO difference between the two ships except in crew number, inertia rating, and console arrangement (AC = 750 crew, 3 tactical consoles 2 science consoles, SC = 1000 crew 2 tactical 3 science).

That difference is far too small because crew makes very little difference in a fight. Consoles make a difference, but not enough of one when there aren't any other things given. At that point there is no "Star Cruiser" or "Assault Cruiser", just "Tier 5 Cruiser".

As it stands the bridge officer layout is one of the defining features of any given ship in STO gameplay terms. Diluting that reduces the value of EVERY ship, including the lockbox, C-store, whatever.

Don't get me wrong, there's value in having a tier-less equipment design. The Secret World uses cosmetic differences only on gear and I like having adaptive moddable gear in The Old Republic, but even with the workaround your solution is a step too far in the direction of making ship choice purely aesthetic.
I dont see how the choice would purely be aesthetic. If I were to change my bridge station value for instance I would no longer be a tank in my Galaxy X because if I sacrafice the higher commander and lt commander abilities for tactical I no longer can have the setup I currently use to keep my shields up and take a lot of punishment. Now while you are correct on consoles making the difference on the ship, it is not the only factor. If you have a ship that doesnt have the ability for you to have both hazzard emitters and reverse shield polarity because you are limited on what you can use you now have to make choices. If a person has the choice to get hazzard emitters for science and have another science ability still avaliable to them to buff up their ship it actually improves the ship some.

On my Galaxy X just like all my other ships I try to have the Hazzard emitters, without them if you get caught in a warp plasma trail or even get hit by the infamous shield zapping borg beam weapon you have nothing to counter that. Sure I could see your view that it wouldnt make a ship that much stronger but certain abilities do help with survival. If my tactical team ability in use is causing my shields to drain from other sides as one side gets pounded hard I hit reverse shield polarity and tactical team allows my shields on all facings to recharge. Without that ability my shields could be hit constantly to the point that they fail and now I have no defense. That is the major reason that I would like to see something done even if my idea isnt used. It wouldnt make low tier ships strong but it would give them the chance to be more than a party popper. If my NX had the ability to use tactical team or reverse shield polarity II or even III while it wouldnt make much difference cause the ship wouldnt do much damage with one tactical console it would atleast give the ship somewhat of a fighting chance even if all it does is allow the ship to last 5 minutes instead of being an instant kill.

I do want to see some changes that gets away from this whole Tier based ranking, if the devs can come up with some good idea great, if my idea spurs an idea of their own great also. I am not saying we need to do it my way, I am just putting out there that if we can give lower tier ships more of a fighting chance even at end game while you would still be a easy target to take out atleast you would have more bridge officer abilities to struggle. I for one like a challenge and I do quite a bit of 1 on 1 fighting with fleet members putting my lower tier ships against newer ships. It doesnt always end nicely but I dont want to see a T5 NX or even a T5 constitution that could tank my Galaxy X. They are ultimatelly old ships and like my lance did to a fleet members Constitution, they should pop with one hit from a weapon like the Galaxy-X`s lance.
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Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 961
# 9
01-11-2013, 02:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by milner62 View Post
I dont see how the choice would purely be aesthetic. If I were to change my bridge station value for instance I would no longer be a tank in my Galaxy X because if I sacrafice the higher commander and lt commander abilities for tactical I no longer can have the setup I currently use to keep my shields up and take a lot of punishment. Now while you are correct on consoles making the difference on the ship, it is not the only factor. If you have a ship that doesnt have the ability for you to have both hazzard emitters and reverse shield polarity because you are limited on what you can use you now have to make choices. If a person has the choice to get hazzard emitters for science and have another science ability still avaliable to them to buff up their ship it actually improves the ship some.
The Gal-X is a bad example because the Gal-X is a one-of-a-kind class. Players not on the store will NEVER get the chance to play it, which is why I used Star Cruiser/Assault Cruiser as the point of comparison.

Here's a better one that might put things into perspective. Under your system, with the workaround, there is almost NO difference between your Gal-X and an Odyssey, except for the console allocations and gimmicks.

It's a lot of change for little conceivable gain. By your own admission, even with your change in place low-tier ships are STILL inferior, which means I will STILL hate people who fly their connies and NX's into Infected because they want to see how "Xx-K1RK-ARCH3R-xX" would do against the Borg.

In the end I would RATHER see Cryptic release an ACTUAL Tier 5 NX Retrofit than to implement your suggestion in its current form.
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