Captain
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 663
# 1 PvP concerns
01-18-2013, 06:58 PM
New year, new possibilites and new concerns. So ive found some new "complaints" i want to put in light, and yet again i want peoples input on the matter.


Transphasic, in particular mines.

Trannie mines needs a look on. These mines do way too much damage in comparison to other mines, with the exception of tricobalts. If the crit link happens, half the huill of a cruiser is gone and is just way too powerful in light of balance, and in comparison to other mines. I would like to see either the damage value lowered or the shield penetration rate reduced.

Remove defense value tied to speed

In light of Thisslers thread regarding defense, i have to concure. Speed tied to defense should be removed as it gives escorts superiority in both defense and offense. They already deal ALOT of damage, then why the blazes is it too given the best defense value as well? That just doesnt make sense at all, and is turning STO to Escort Online. The defense value should not be removed from the game but rather given a fixed value based on ship class. This would balance out defense between ships. Actually it will make engineers in cruisers more valuable, and not sitting ducks to a tractor beaming escort taking down a cruiser in a split second, because his defense was reduced to 0 due to no speed.


Remove movement immunity buff from APO

If defense tied to speed wont be altered i would liked to see the movement buff from APO removed. Currently its possible to have permanent uptime on APO using appropiate doffs and double copy of APO. This alone offers the best defense value along with a raw damage bonus which makes escort yet again the best ship in the game, and the remainder sitting ducks. If we are looking to balance the game and the ships, escorts cant have all the goodies while the other 2 classes sit with the mediocre stuff.


Add an immunity buff to the EWP hold.

Right now its very easy to keep ships pinned down by spamming EWP in combo with the doff that makes the ship halt. And this can be chained and done over and over. To prevent this from going overboard, i would like to see an immunity buff given after a ship has been exposed to it once, like they gave to most science skills. Im aware you can use a hazard emitter to remove it, but as long as you drift the EWP AOE you will constantly reapply it until you clear it. Worse is the effect lingers on your ship after you cleared the AOE effect, prolonging the torture. Right now EWP offers a movement halt and it gives the user zone control, along with damage which goes straigh to hull. In my opinion this is just way too much benefit for one skill alone.


So please dicuss.
Co-founder of The Spanish Inquisition TSI - Cause no one expects it!

PaxOttomana: gawd mirror event is like fighting a tsi premade, they keep comin and comin!
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,734
# 2
01-18-2013, 07:15 PM
Perm uptime to APO?

Wtf, since when?


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Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,729
# 3
01-18-2013, 07:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by devorasx View Post
New year, new possibilites and new concerns. So ive found some new "complaints" i want to put in light, and yet again i want peoples input on the matter.


Transphasic, in particular mines.

Trannie mines needs a look on. These mines do way too much damage in comparison to other mines, with the exception of tricobalts. If the crit link happens, half the huill of a cruiser is gone and is just way too powerful in light of balance, and in comparison to other mines. I would like to see either the damage value lowered or the shield penetration rate reduced.

Remove defense value tied to speed

In light of Thisslers thread regarding defense, i have to concure. Speed tied to defense should be removed as it gives escorts superiority in both defense and offense. They already deal ALOT of damage, then why the blazes is it too given the best defense value as well? That just doesnt make sense at all, and is turning STO to Escort Online. The defense value should not be removed from the game but rather given a fixed value based on ship class. This would balance out defense between ships. Actually it will make engineers in cruisers more valuable, and not sitting ducks to a tractor beaming escort taking down a cruiser in a split second, because his defense was reduced to 0 due to no speed.


Remove movement immunity buff from APO

If defense tied to speed wont be altered i would liked to see the movement buff from APO removed. Currently its possible to have permanent uptime on APO using appropiate doffs and double copy of APO. This alone offers the best defense value along with a raw damage bonus which makes escort yet again the best ship in the game, and the remainder sitting ducks. If we are looking to balance the game and the ships, escorts cant have all the goodies while the other 2 classes sit with the mediocre stuff.


Add an immunity buff to the EWP hold.

Right now its very easy to keep ships pinned down by spamming EWP in combo with the doff that makes the ship halt. And this can be chained and done over and over. To prevent this from going overboard, i would like to see an immunity buff given after a ship has been exposed to it once, like they gave to most science skills. Im aware you can use a hazard emitter to remove it, but as long as you drift the EWP AOE you will constantly reapply it until you clear it. Worse is the effect lingers on your ship after you cleared the AOE effect, prolonging the torture. Right now EWP offers a movement halt and it gives the user zone control, along with damage which goes straigh to hull. In my opinion this is just way too much benefit for one skill alone.


So please dicuss.
While we're at it, you can add an "I Win" button to cruisers (and only cruisers), since your beef appears to be with primarily Escorts, but the powers you list turn up on all sorts of other frames, including sci ships, and even some of the higher tier cruisers.

EWP is one of the few engineering powers that works outside (offensive) the hull, and has a broader utility than self-buffing. YES, ti's a hold, and YES, it does damage, and YES, it's hard to clear...it's also highly visible and only a threat when your (usually escort) ship is right on top of the user's path of travel. (unlike those Sci powers you mentioned, you can't "aim" EWP, your opposition has to drive INTO it!) Protecting people from their own stupidity probably is NOT the best purpose for altering the rules. One's mileage may vary on this, of course-but generally speaking unless you're either highly reliant o pet-spam, or you like to fight from the distance of the other guy's shorts, the counter to an EWP cloud already exists-it's called keeping your distance.

Transphasic Mines:

aren't a big deal. Unlike Trics, they aren't AOE weapons with huge secondary effects (knockign out subsystems, etc.), and if you enter into PvP expecting immunity from damage, well...go back to playing 'normal" STFs, please. They really aren't that powerful, and they don't crit that often, AND, they require all the saem things other minefield types require in order to work-proximity before they trigger, and a target that can't outrun them.

Said situation is relatively rare outside the spawn point in Ker'rat...

Now, considering that there ARE things that do not have a counter (the lobi-purchased temporal abilities/weapons), but you're apparently fine with those things, complaining about relatively mundane, simple things that are universally available (as opposed to purchased for exorbitant prices), to all factions (every faction, not just one), and have been in the game for years and years without breaking balance (and all of the things you listed have)...I won't say "learn to play", but I will state my belief that you're having a tantrum over nothing.
"when you're out of Birds of Prey, you're out of ships."
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,734
# 4
01-18-2013, 07:31 PM
Yeah, the only thing that needs to be done is to make HE clear EWP for just a little longer than it does now.

There's no need to go and add an immunity to an already expensive power.


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Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,038
# 5
01-18-2013, 07:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickngo View Post
Transphasic Mines:

aren't a big deal. Unlike Trics, they aren't AOE weapons with huge secondary effects (knockign out subsystems, etc.), and if you enter into PvP expecting immunity from damage, well...go back to playing 'normal" STFs, please. They really aren't that powerful, and they don't crit that often, AND, they require all the saem things other minefield types require in order to work-proximity before they trigger, and a target that can't outrun them.
Trans Mines are very much AoE weapons - whether you're talking clusters or regular mines. They will affect multiple targets if they are close enough.

Though, it's generally going to be a case of clearing pet spam or destroying groups of NPCs in PvE. Players have too many options available to them to avoid getting caught up in it.

Against pets/NPCs though, Aux Batt that GW - fire off the Fore Cluster, fly through dropping the DPB'd mines...and both the cluster/mines will damage multiple targets. As I mentioned in the other post, add some plasma to this - firing off the TS Hyper after the DPB...good pet/NPC shredding fun.

As for the crit? They have as much chance to crit as anything else - depending on modifiers and skill build. But...because of the CDs on either the mines or clusters - there's going to be fewer opportunities for them to crit. They're just not fired as often.
Rear Admiral Geist, Klingon Science Officer
V.S.S. Oracle, D'Kyr-class Science Vessel
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,729
# 6
01-18-2013, 09:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
Trans Mines are very much AoE weapons - whether you're talking clusters or regular mines. They will affect multiple targets if they are close enough.

Though, it's generally going to be a case of clearing pet spam or destroying groups of NPCs in PvE. Players have too many options available to them to avoid getting caught up in it.

Against pets/NPCs though, Aux Batt that GW - fire off the Fore Cluster, fly through dropping the DPB'd mines...and both the cluster/mines will damage multiple targets. As I mentioned in the other post, add some plasma to this - firing off the TS Hyper after the DPB...good pet/NPC shredding fun.

As for the crit? They have as much chance to crit as anything else - depending on modifiers and skill build. But...because of the CDs on either the mines or clusters - there's going to be fewer opportunities for them to crit. They're just not fired as often.
Lemme clarify: Each individual mine is not, in itself, an area-of-effect weapon, clearer? Trics are-even ONE tric is, so when you get a DPB with Trics, there are four areas of effect instead of one, see?

each individual detonation can hit more than one target with Tric mines-this is not so with Transphasics-each individual mine has to hit, with transphasics, to do damage...just like every other standard minefield, and just like each OTHER standard minefield, transphasics can only damage one target Per mine-period-and none of them shuts down subsystems or cripples systems to a target (or de-buffs systems, or causes extended cooldowns...).


clearer now?
"when you're out of Birds of Prey, you're out of ships."
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,038
# 7
01-18-2013, 09:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickngo View Post
Lemme clarify: Each individual mine is not, in itself, an area-of-effect weapon, clearer? Trics are-even ONE tric is, so when you get a DPB with Trics, there are four areas of effect instead of one, see?

each individual detonation can hit more than one target with Tric mines-this is not so with Transphasics-each individual mine has to hit, with transphasics, to do damage...just like every other standard minefield, and just like each OTHER standard minefield, transphasics can only damage one target Per mine-period-and none of them shuts down subsystems or cripples systems to a target (or de-buffs systems, or causes extended cooldowns...).


clearer now?

[Combat (Self)] Your Mine Explosion dealt 346 (1609) shield damage to Centaur Class Frigate.
[Combat (Self)] Your Mine Explosion dealt 331 (1542) shield damage to Centaur Class Frigate.
[Combat (Self)] Your Mine Explosion dealt 354 (1645) shield damage to Centaur Class Frigate.
[Combat (Self)] Your Mine Explosion dealt 355 (1650) shield damage to Centaur Class Frigate.
[Combat (Self)] Your Mine Explosion dealt 279 (1298) shield damage to Centaur Class Frigate.
[Combat (Self)] Your Mine Explosion dealt 274 (1274) shield damage to Centaur Class Frigate.
[Combat (Self)] Your Mine Explosion dealt 355 (1653) shield damage to Centaur Class Frigate.
[Combat (Self)] Your Mine Explosion dealt 351 (1632) shield damage to Centaur Class Frigate.
[Combat (Self)] Your Mine Explosion dealt 402 (1869) shield damage to Centaur Class Frigate.
[Combat (Self)] Your Mine Explosion dealt 356 (1657) shield damage to Centaur Class Frigate.
[Combat (Self)] Your Mine Explosion deals 1370 (2979) Kinetic Damage to Centaur Class Frigate.
[Combat (Self)] Your Mine Explosion deals 1313 (2855) Kinetic Damage to Centaur Class Frigate.
[Combat (Self)] Your Mine Explosion deals 1401 (3047) Kinetic Damage to Centaur Class Frigate.
[Combat (Self)] Your Mine Explosion deals 1405 (3055) Kinetic Damage to Centaur Class Frigate.
[Combat (Self)] Your Mine Explosion deals 1105 (2403) Kinetic Damage to Centaur Class Frigate.
[Combat (Self)] Your Mine Explosion deals 1085 (2359) Kinetic Damage to Centaur Class Frigate.
[Combat (Self)] Your Mine Explosion deals 1408 (3061) Kinetic Damage to Centaur Class Frigate.
[Combat (Self)] Your Mine Explosion deals 1390 (3022) Kinetic Damage to Centaur Class Frigate.
[Combat (Self)] Your Mine Explosion deals 1592 (3461) Kinetic Damage to Centaur Class Frigate.
[Combat (Self)] Your Mine Explosion deals 1412 (3069) Kinetic Damage to Centaur Class Frigate.
[Combat (Self)] Your Mine Explosion dealt 334 (1554) shield damage to Miranda Class Frigate.
[Combat (Self)] Your Mine Explosion dealt 317 (1473) shield damage to Miranda Class Frigate.
[Combat (Self)] Your Mine Explosion dealt 383 (1782) shield damage to Miranda Class Frigate.
[Combat (Self)] Your Mine Explosion dealt 341 (1584) shield damage to Miranda Class Frigate.
[Combat (Self)] Your Mine Explosion dealt 270 (1256) shield damage to Miranda Class Frigate.
[Combat (Self)] Your Mine Explosion dealt 384 (1784) shield damage to Miranda Class Frigate.
[Combat (Self)] Your Mine Explosion dealt 362 (1684) shield damage to Miranda Class Frigate.
[Combat (Self)] Your Mine Explosion dealt 340 (1581) shield damage to Miranda Class Frigate.
[Combat (Self)] Your Mine Explosion dealt 324 (1506) shield damage to Miranda Class Frigate.
[Combat (Self)] Your Mine Explosion dealt 289 (1344) shield damage to Miranda Class Frigate.
[Combat (Self)] Your Mine Explosion deals 1324 (2878) Kinetic Damage to Miranda Class Frigate.
[Combat (Self)] Your Mine Explosion deals 1255 (2727) Kinetic Damage to Miranda Class Frigate.
[Combat (Self)] Your Mine Explosion deals 1518 (3301) Kinetic Damage to Miranda Class Frigate.
[Combat (Self)] Your Mine Explosion deals 1349 (2933) Kinetic Damage to Miranda Class Frigate.
[Combat (Self)] Your Mine Explosion deals 1070 (2326) Kinetic Damage to Miranda Class Frigate.
[Combat (Self)] Your Mine Explosion deals 1519 (3303) Kinetic Damage to Miranda Class Frigate.
[Combat (Self)] Your Mine Explosion deals 1435 (3119) Kinetic Damage to Miranda Class Frigate.
[Combat (Self)] Your Mine Explosion deals 1346 (2927) Kinetic Damage to Miranda Class Frigate.
[Combat (Self)] Your Mine Explosion deals 1283 (2789) Kinetic Damage to Miranda Class Frigate.
[Combat (Self)] Your Mine Explosion deals 1145 (2489) Kinetic Damage to Miranda Class Frigate.

One Breen Cluster torpedo. No buffs or anything. Just a quick test in Kahless Expanse from the start of Empire Defense.

10 mines from a cluster. 2 targets damaged. AoE.

I could go grab three of them, fly around until they were in position - you'd see three sets of 10 mines hitting. AoE.

If the Danubes/Peregrines could survive the GW - I could grab the seven of them. You'd see seven sets of 10 mines hitting. AoE.

No, the regular Trans mines do not AoE. The mines from the Breen Cluster do.
Rear Admiral Geist, Klingon Science Officer
V.S.S. Oracle, D'Kyr-class Science Vessel
Captain
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 663
# 8
01-18-2013, 08:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickngo View Post

Now, considering that there ARE things that do not have a counter (the lobi-purchased temporal abilities/weapons), but you're apparently fine with those things, complaining about relatively mundane, simple things that are universally available (as opposed to purchased for exorbitant prices), to all factions (every faction, not just one), and have been in the game for years and years without breaking balance (and all of the things you listed have)...I won't say "learn to play", but I will state my belief that you're having a tantrum over nothing.
When did i say that? And when have I ever advocated for abilties which cant be countered? Maybe you should be very careful on putting words in other peoples mouths. I take that highly offensive.

And my tantrum as you call it, is just abilities im pondering over and have observed of late being as unblanaced as when the tric mines were called for foul play. But then again other people claimed trics are easy to deal with etc etc.
Co-founder of The Spanish Inquisition TSI - Cause no one expects it!

PaxOttomana: gawd mirror event is like fighting a tsi premade, they keep comin and comin!
Captain
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 663
# 9
01-18-2013, 08:23 PM
What nags me is that people are looking at the abilities listed soley by themselves. Dont people ever think that a player will be intelligent enough to use a tractor to make sure you get hit by the EWP, or by that Breen trannie cluster? Hell yes they will, and hence the problem arises. Just as trics where put in a bad light when used in combination with something that ensures its hit, is causing this same issue.

When it comes to the defense value it easy to see that defense rises when the ship starts to move. Just open your ship sheet and look at defense at 0 speed and at full speed. The defense value shoots up like mad. Add an evasive and holy heck. Is it no wonder why escorts seems to survive so much better then other classes, by being able to flee fastest and intercept fleeing ships fastest due to inertia.

Regarding APO`s immunity buff to movement gives escorts a sole advantage. They can EASY avoid any combo involving movement debuffs with trics, EWP, trannies <insert ability here> while other classes cant. That grants escorts WAY more survivability then others by a far margin. How is this remotly fair or balanced to cruisers and science ships?
Co-founder of The Spanish Inquisition TSI - Cause no one expects it!

PaxOttomana: gawd mirror event is like fighting a tsi premade, they keep comin and comin!
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,038
# 10
01-18-2013, 08:57 PM
It's a case of looking at the various tanks and wondering if they're balanced.

Escort - Avoidance Tank.
Cruiser - Mitigation Tank.
Science Vessel - Debuff/Mitigation Tank.

The Escort avoids damage - a dodge tank, if you will.
The Cruiser soaks damage - high health/resists, if you will.
The Science...well, it's the combination of debuffing damage coming in before it comes in and resisting the damage once it arrives.

But you can't just look at the tank, because it's not just the tank. It's not just taking damage, it's also doing damage. So it's not a case of looking at the three tanks to see if they're balanced - you can't balance the three tanks against each other on tanking alone.

The Escort does more damage. So it will have less of a tank. That's less of a cumulative tank. The Cruiser does less damage. So it will have more of a tank. That's more of a cumulative tank.

The combination of avoidance and mitigation that an Escort has - should not provide it an equal defensive capability as a Cruiser. It's just a case that the reduced tank that an Escort has won't come from the same tank as a Cruiser (or a Sci).

Basically, an Escort shouldn't be able to avoid more damage than a Cruiser can soak. An Escort shouldn't even be able to avoid the same damage a Cruiser can soak. The increased offense means reduced defense... the increase in offense is noticeable - the decrease in defense should be noticeable as well.

To an extent, I believe that's what some folks are pointing out as a problem - they're not seeing that...
Rear Admiral Geist, Klingon Science Officer
V.S.S. Oracle, D'Kyr-class Science Vessel
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