Commander
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 374
# 1 Sigh....Escorts...
01-21-2013, 06:10 AM
They're great and all....well, actually, too great. So great that when entering an Elite STF I am on my knees in front of my keyboard praying there is at least one.

I mean, let's be honest, DPS rules this game, especially PvE. It doesn't matter if you can take damage, and since most science abilities have been nerfed stupid, Escorts are the ruling class of Federation ships in STO.


So, could we, like, change that? At least in PvE?
More anything?
"MORE EVERYTHING!"
-Jerry Seinfeld on Star Trek Online Content

Foundry Works: Uncharted
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,046
# 2
01-21-2013, 06:37 AM
Oh if only... but to do so would be unbalanced apparently...
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 238
# 3
01-21-2013, 06:44 AM
Escorts are fine. They do what they are supposed to.
The problem is Cryptic's mission design. Think about it.

Let me think of an example mission... hmm...

How about on the first part of a mission you have to break through a huge line of turrets.
You could destroy them, but you waste time doing so because there are so many.
A Cruiser could aggro and tank them, while Escorts and Science ships fly next to him and hurry through.
In the center clear of the turrets there is some priority target to be destroyed, quickly done by Escorts.
Some try to flee, a Science ship can hold them in place though with a gravity well!
Or well... you waste time again by having to break through the turret line yet again.

Vornek@oberlerchner123 - Join Date: July 2008
Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 366
# 4
01-21-2013, 06:59 AM
Two escorts go AP:A III + AP:O III + CSV II and blasts the way through the turrets. They can cycle the blasting so going through them is pretty fast. Cycled EPtS + HE/TSS from time to time gives them ability to tank damage from the turrets that survived. Third one goes straight through and with same combination (replace CSV II with CRF II) blasts the main target in no time. Some flee, but the first two escorts are already free and with atl least CRF and AP:A ready - blasting rest of targets.

Where is the need for sci and cruiser here?

You would need to force the players to use those ships special abilities. Like: this ship can be stopped only via GW/Tyken/Energy Siphon III. Or: this target can be destroyed only with DEM III. Or you need Aceton III to stop this uber cube spraying one-shooting balls of death. If it's optional and can be done with raw firepower - escorts will be alway better.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 999
# 5
01-21-2013, 11:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kiloace View Post
They're great and all....well, actually, too great. So great that when entering an Elite STF I am on my knees in front of my keyboard praying there is at least one.

I mean, let's be honest, DPS rules this game, especially PvE. It doesn't matter if you can take damage, and since most science abilities have been nerfed stupid, Escorts are the ruling class of Federation ships in STO.


So, could we, like, change that? At least in PvE?
Quote:
Originally Posted by adamkafei View Post
Oh if only... but to do so would be unbalanced apparently...
As a science main, my understanding, as gleamed from the forums, is that the "imbalance" isn't science powers per se, but one particular PvP combination:

MVAE + Tactical Captain buffs (AP-A, FoMM, GDF) + Aux battery + Lt. Cmdr Science Power = one hit kill (or close enough with cannon and torp skills tacked on) against opposition PvP escorts.

Said combination creates situations where a Tac, with little to no science skill, can pop a GW I that does more damage than a Sci, fully specced, tossing GW III. Most other science damage skills "suffer" the same way...

Looking at it, GW, Tractor Beam, TBR, PSW - all deal kinetic damage. Feedback pulse deals, IIRC (as I don't use it a lot) either a generic "energy" type or a reflection of what damage is being used. Same with CPB, but I think CPB is tachyon along with Tachyon beam - which accounts for, as far as I know, all the science damage-dealers. Of course, tachyon & kinetic are 100% affected by the tac captain buffs, since they share the damage type of existing weapons - the game just checks damage type, not source.

Problem identified. Cryptic's current solution is to reduce these damages to the point that they aren't a problem when combined with tac skills. Side effect is to reduce the ability for science ships to deal skill-based damage. To bring science damage levels "back" to the point they were pre-nerf, Cryptic has been releasing all sorts of "alternate" Science damages - carriers (pet DPS), Vesta-Aventine Lance, Temporal "reset" that saves science ship but not the remaining target(s), cannons on Vesta, etc.

Alternate solution - new damage type(s), for example, we create new damage classes "particle" and "graviton". Particle will be science's "energy" damage, Graviton "kinetic". Tachyon beam, CPB, feedback now issues particle damage, and GW / Tractor beam / TBR / PSW issue graviton damage. This way we don't blow the balance between anti-shield (energy) skills and anti-hull (kinetic) skills.

Obviously, outside of maybe slipping anti-graviton and anti-particle onto a couple of the "universal" armors, a couple of new anti-science armors are issued, so that a ship has to kit out for either anti-escort or anti-science duty - which sorta makes it harder to defend an escort (but cruisers may have enough consoles to slot both armor types), and can add a whole new dimension to PvP - if the "current optimal premade" is 2 Escorts (DPS) 2 Cruisers (healing) and a Science (disruption), if they all go in with "anti-weapons" defenses, the Sci will wipe the table, so a cruiser and escort would have to switch to anti-science (to live through science disruptions), but being anti-science opens them up to easier kills by the weapon-users, heck, the anti-science ships may actually feel pressure from the cruiser's "pressure DPS".
Well, with the upgrade announcement leaving NX and Connie fans in the dust again, can we restart / revisit the T5 Connie and NX threads - since they will no longer be "truly" endgame ships... (after we get the T5 versions, it'll be time to see them added to the T5U upgrade charts too...
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,132
# 6
01-21-2013, 03:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dareau View Post
...

Alternate solution - new damage type(s), for example, we create new damage classes "particle" and "graviton". Particle will be science's "energy" damage, Graviton "kinetic". Tachyon beam, CPB, feedback now issues particle damage, and GW / Tractor beam / TBR / PSW issue graviton damage. This way we don't blow the balance between anti-shield (energy) skills and anti-hull (kinetic) skills.

...
New science-y damage types that don't benefit from tac buffs. Now that is a very good idea. I miss being able to kill things with science, I really do.
Exploration suggestions thread - give it a read

BTW, you'd pronounce it 'Cap'n Manks'

I protest the removal of exploration clusters
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 14
# 7
01-21-2013, 03:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dareau View Post
Looking at it, GW, Tractor Beam, TBR, PSW - all deal kinetic damage. Feedback pulse deals, IIRC (as I don't use it a lot) either a generic "energy" type or a reflection of what damage is being used. Same with CPB, but I think CPB is tachyon along with Tachyon beam - which accounts for, as far as I know, all the science damage-dealers. Of course, tachyon & kinetic are 100% affected by the tac captain buffs, since they share the damage type of existing weapons - the game just checks damage type, not source.

Problem identified. Cryptic's current solution is to reduce these damages to the point that they aren't a problem when combined with tac skills. Side effect is to reduce the ability for science ships to deal skill-based damage. To bring science damage levels "back" to the point they were pre-nerf, Cryptic has been releasing all sorts of "alternate" Science damages - carriers (pet DPS), Vesta-Aventine Lance, Temporal "reset" that saves science ship but not the remaining target(s), cannons on Vesta, etc.

".
That was changed a long time ago, a sci with GW3 and some extra points/consoles/deflector in particle generators will do a lot more damage with it then a tac - guess why u seldom see tacs in sciships anymore. Look at the description of AP:A - it will boost weapon damage, not every damage. Most people with a TAC in a MVAE will put a shield or hull heal at their ltnt. cmdr. sci slot for pvp.

Regards
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 658
# 8
01-21-2013, 04:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dareau View Post
Looking at it, GW, Tractor Beam, TBR, PSW - all deal kinetic damage. Feedback pulse deals, IIRC (as I don't use it a lot) either a generic "energy" type or a reflection of what damage is being used. Same with CPB, but I think CPB is tachyon along with Tachyon beam - which accounts for, as far as I know, all the science damage-dealers.

...

Alternate solution - new damage type(s), for example, we create new damage classes "particle" and "graviton". Particle will be science's "energy" damage, Graviton "kinetic". Tachyon beam, CPB, feedback now issues particle damage, and GW / Tractor beam / TBR / PSW issue graviton damage. This way we don't blow the balance between anti-shield (energy) skills and anti-hull (kinetic) skills.
That's actually already been implemented. Sci kinetic damage is now totally separate from other kinetic damage, and shield drains have their own special way of dealing shield only damage. That's been the case for several months. But they still keep nerfing them over and over again. My CPB used to be able to strip half a facing off a medium level PvE target like a Sphere or Escort, but now, with the same skills, I can't even see the effects.
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,691
# 9
01-21-2013, 11:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by obertheromulan View Post
Escorts are fine. They do what they are supposed to.
The problem is Cryptic's mission design. Think about it.

Let me think of an example mission... hmm...

How about on the first part of a mission you have to break through a huge line of turrets.
You could destroy them, but you waste time doing so because there are so many.
A Cruiser could aggro and tank them, while Escorts and Science ships fly next to him and hurry through.
In the center clear of the turrets there is some priority target to be destroyed, quickly done by Escorts.
Some try to flee, a Science ship can hold them in place though with a gravity well!
Or well... you waste time again by having to break through the turret line yet again.
now THIS sounds like a fun foundry mission

Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
I find this line of replies sadly hilarious. We put a lot of work into the massive list of fixes/changes above, and ya'll are hung up on the ability to skip our content. =p
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 999
# 10
01-21-2013, 12:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by obertheromulan View Post
Escorts are fine. They do what they are supposed to.
The problem is Cryptic's mission design. Think about it.

Let me think of an example mission... hmm...

How about on the first part of a mission you have to break through a huge line of turrets.
You could destroy them, but you waste time doing so because there are so many.
A Cruiser could aggro and tank them, while Escorts and Science ships fly next to him and hurry through.
In the center clear of the turrets there is some priority target to be destroyed, quickly done by Escorts.
Some try to flee, a Science ship can hold them in place though with a gravity well!
Or well... you waste time again by having to break through the turret line yet again.
It just hit me:

Okay, said turret wall could be gateway-esque in it's HPs, so that it takes a good 5 minutes of escort fire to blast a big enough hole, making the "tank me" approach more desirable...

But then again, so is the "huddle up and hit full impulse through the wall" tactic. How can we get the balance between 3 targets that need aggroing (CSV and BFaW I both randomly fire on only 3 targets), that do enough damage to make a bum rush fail but yet is low enough for the tank to survive extended exposure to it?

And the center runs into a whole new set of problems. Keying the center to one given science power (your case, GW), means that the MVAE or whatever cruiser(s) have LtCmdr science can go in ready with the "one desired science power" and own the center. Having a group of weak enemies = CSV lunch, and having a couple of them at "very strong" levels means that "single delay" powers like TB, EWP, etc. can delay them as well as a sci.

Some random thoughts to plan this potential foundry mission around...
Well, with the upgrade announcement leaving NX and Connie fans in the dust again, can we restart / revisit the T5 Connie and NX threads - since they will no longer be "truly" endgame ships... (after we get the T5 versions, it'll be time to see them added to the T5U upgrade charts too...
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