Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,223
So the general theme lately has been "Escorts evil, Cruisers poor and neglected".

I don't think fixing it is as simple as "make beams kill things" because then you still have the problem of, say, three little Breen frigates that do more damage than a Breen cruiser in the Deferi dailies. Just increasing beam damage or reducing beam drain doesn't address the core issue: that big ships don't hit harder than little ships *within the same class*. That's the issue that I see.

I think the best solution I can come up with is to tie a bonus to energy weapons that is related to a ship's maximum crew. The same beam on a ship with 200 crew would do less damage than one on a ship with 800. I haven't crunched the numbers on exactly how it would work. But I think this makes sense and would address the issue, somewhat.

I think the general idea would be that a ship with more total maximum crew would receive a bonus to base energy weapon damage. This could address the above kind of scenario: one big cruiser should hit hard enough to be more of a threat than three little ships that are not escorts.

It still won't hit nearly as hard as an escort with super duper dual cannons. It's not supposed to. I'm not looking to reinvent the wheel. And beam drain would still be beam drain. But it would in my opinion potentially address the issue of big cruisers being outclassed by several small ones where almost nothing in Trek suggests this should happen.

Thoughts?
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"We are smart." - Grebnedlog

Member of Alliance Central Command/boq botlhra'ghom
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 236
# 2
02-13-2013, 08:14 PM
All this complain about cruisers is weird.. I find cruisers to be very resilient ships able to dish out awesome damage.

I'm hitting for 800-1k+ dmg per pulse on beam arrays and crits for 2-3k. With BO1, it can even hit up to 18-20k.

I manage my beam energy problem with creative thinking. I load 4x Plasma Manifolds, which gives me +15 weapon power, then i fly with custom energy setting (vs the standard template): highest level for shields, followed by AUX. I can still get 88 weapon power.

Then I load up EptA and Aux2Batt.. never ever have any problems with my energy management.

Nothing wrong with cruisers.. learn to embrace your skills.

I mean.. if one day Cryptic just decided to change all the comm Eng to comm Tac for all cruisers, I can guarantee that the complaint thread about cruisers will drop by 90% (only 10% of the threads about cruisers out there know what they're talking about, but even so the 10% mostly points out flaws in single ships vs the cruiser class general)

So be creative with your boff skills, don't just load 3x Eng Teams and 3x EptS on your boffs, you're setting yourself up for failure.

the issue is ppl always think Eng Boff skills are crap.. which is not true!
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,223
# 3
02-13-2013, 08:15 PM
I'm not saying cruisers are broken. I don't believe that either.

I enjoy flying mine just fine.

I'm saying if three crummy cruisers can outclass one good cruiser, that's broken.

The issue isn't Cruisers vs. Escorts. The issue is how ships within their own group measure against each other.
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"We are smart." - Grebnedlog

Member of Alliance Central Command/boq botlhra'ghom
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 236
# 4
02-13-2013, 08:26 PM
Tying crew size to dmg dealt is also a flawed idea. How scientifically will it be justified other than asking your extra crew members running in a hamster wheel to generate extra power for your beams.

Crew size should be used for better repair rates for hull/subsystems.

There was a talk about giving us a warp core equipment, there I can see some logic where a cruiser warp core gives higher bonus to ships power. Although an escort warp core gives higher bonus to only weapon power while sci ships get bonus to aux.

Your idea, no offense, is rather moot.

Klinks, if this guy gets his way, say goodbye to your BOPs. With 50 crew, it will be a joke on dps.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,223
# 5
02-13-2013, 08:27 PM
Quote:
How scientifically will it be justified other than asking your extra crew members running in a hamster wheel to generate extra power for your beams.
Bigger ships have larger warp cores, which produce more energy.

That's pretty standard Star Trek technobabble.

Quote:
Klinks, if this guy gets his way, say goodbye to your BOPs
I fly a BoP on my KDF account. But it's pretty obvious you're not very interested in conversation.
--------------------------------------

"We are smart." - Grebnedlog

Member of Alliance Central Command/boq botlhra'ghom
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 236
# 6
02-13-2013, 08:32 PM
Yes but bigger warp core does not equal more crew. Crew size has nothing to do how big your warp core is. Entreprise D had a huge crew complement but there were many scientists, civilians and even Children. That's also pretty standard Trek common sense.

Read what I type above on the warp core type ship equipment.

Its not that I'm uninterested, but it gets boring. There are at least 1 thread posted up per day on 'my cruiser should dps lotsa and lotsa'. And honestly, your idea is one of the worst so far.

Last edited by avarseir; 02-13-2013 at 08:36 PM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,455
# 7
02-13-2013, 10:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by avarseir View Post
All this complain about cruisers is weird.. I find cruisers to be very resilient ships able to dish out awesome damage.

I'm hitting for 800-1k+ dmg per pulse on beam arrays and crits for 2-3k. With BO1, it can even hit up to 18-20k.

...

the issue is ppl always think Eng Boff skills are crap.. which is not true!
I'm with you 100% on this.

Granted, I do not yet have a max-level Fed engineer toon (I'm working on it though - he's at level 29) but my lvl 50 Tac and Sci Fed toons have both dabbled in cruisers, and my KDF has never driven anything else except a Kar'Fi and that only in solo PvE.

That said, my Fed engineer does not feel noticeably impaired doing mission content compared to my past experiences. And I've had a lot of fun with the other guys driving big slow beam boats to great affect. You just have to know how to use them, and the abilities (your own and your BOffs) to get the most out of them.

Everyone knows about the shield and hull heals but after talking to a bunch of people about their BOff setups I find a lot of very good BOff abilities are totally ignored. Such as:

Aceton Beam - this debuffs the target's energy weapon damage by 25-75% (depending on level) for 30 seconds and there is no counter-effect. Also applies a radiation DoT.

Auxillary to Inertial Dampeners - using this plus Evasive Maneuvers will make you fly. You will actually exceed full impulse velocity while in combat. It also buffs your turn rate. Again, use in combination with evasive maneuvers or an attack pattern, and you can make an Ody do a pirouette. Suddenly that raptor who was camping off your port quarter behind your forward beam array arc and ahead of your aft torpedo arc is dead in your sights. This skill also adds a very useful kinetic damage resistance buff and immunity to repel and disable attacks. (So click if you see anything labeled "tricobalt" headed your way.)

Boarding Party - not too useful in PvP (it's easy enough to counter) but against NPCs it is highly effective at disabling subsystems.

Directed Energy Modulation - this is a beam-boat captain's best friend. It greatly improves the shield penetration power of any and every beam weapon you have for 30 seconds. Use with beam overload for best results.

Eject Warp Plasma - a personal favorite of mine. There are few PvP moments more satisfying then opening the plasma taps and catching a cloaked Defiant or BoP who thought he could sneak up behind you for an easy kill. Not only do you decloak him, you also set him on fire and slow him down so he can't escape the cloud. At least, not before you've dealt enough to damage to him to make him use ramming speed to try to run away. Yes, a player can use hazard emitters to put out the plasma fires and APO to break the hold effect, but I find there's always that moment of "WTF?" that causes just enough hesitation to leave them very screwed. Oh and those annoying swarms of enemy fighters? Fried like bacon.

I never take a cruiser into combat without at least Aux2ID and DEM, and at least one of the "offensive debuffs." (Always Aceton Beam III for pulling Tacsorts teeth in PvP.) Sadly, many, many cruiser captains do neglect these abilities, and therein lies their gravest error.


"I won't try to hide behind the Law if what I stand for is what's Right."

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Last edited by sander233; 02-13-2013 at 10:23 PM.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,202
# 8
02-14-2013, 06:12 AM
I really should post a video of myself flying my eng/crusier and then a screenshot of the DPS and heal parser, so that people see that the problem is in the way they use their ships, and not ships themselves. I've even been pondering to buy a fleet galaxy just to prove them that any cruiser will perform well and will play a significant role if you fit it and play it well.

I don't say i'm not opposed to see escorts healing and tanking abilities lowered (i'm all for it) but that harder missions have been designed to get at least a good cruiser in it.

Ask for harder pve instead of asking for a buff to cruisers, that's the best solution.

Last edited by diogene0; 02-14-2013 at 06:15 AM.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 71
# 9
02-14-2013, 07:21 AM
I think the balance is good.

However..

If a group of players get together to create a pre-made PvP team of 5 escorts and they do it properly. 5 Escorts will easily wipe out 5 Cruisers within a minute. Especially if they are on KDF side and all 5 players are using the leech consoles, with a mix of tetryon, tachyon beam and all 5 have Romulan torpedoes.

There are some crazy teams in PvP with Escorts and they take not just Cruisers from 100% in 2 seconds but Carriers or Sci ships.

On my screen I don't even seen the decrease it just suddenly drops from 100% to boom no kidding.

But I'm not complaining. It's hard to know if the teams they are wiping out are all fully built ships and specced properly. I also think playing on wi-fi causes this and some players may feel Escorts are hitting them hard because the game is not balanced when in-fact their computer is not sending enough data to the server to react to whats happening.
Captain
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 659
# 10
02-14-2013, 08:21 AM
The primary issue in PvE is how the encounters are designed. Until Cryptic decides to revise the AI of NPC ships so that success is not determined solely by the amount of dps you bring, changes to how our ships operate would only shift favor from one ship class to another. We used to play cruisers online. Currently we play escorts online. Is science online next?
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