Ensign
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3
There have been many threads on this but mums the word at PW. Every patch makes escorts more and more powerful and cruisers and science ships more and more obsolete. I rarely ever see a science ship anymore and it seems that the only people that play cruisers are those that have sentimental attachments to them (like me).

I was one of the originals that started this game on the first day and chose an engineer captain. Oh, that I had chosen a tac captain like 90% of players today are playing.

Tactical/escort captains have insane damage, healing, maneuverability, and survivability now. There is no upside to playing a cruiser and its a cold day in *&^*&* when you would play a science ship over an escort.

I dont need to go into specifics. There are more threads on this topic than you can shake a plasma injector at, but this needs to be addressed, soon.

Rebalance the ships- give them all roles once again. Nerf escorts, buff cruisers, and really buff science ships. It is desperately needed.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,005
# 2
02-24-2013, 11:07 PM
Escorts don't need nerfs.

The problem with cruisers and science vessels lies in Engineering and Science abilities. One of the Galaxy-R's biggest problems is that it's loaded with Engineering Boff slots -- the same number of Engineering slots that the Defiant-R has in Tactical slots, incidentally. If Eng and Sci abilities were better, then those ships would be better.

I once suggested that they add an Engineering ability that boosts weapon performance based on the amount of crew a ship has, with huge dropoffs after 1,000. I don't think anyone replied to that, but it was just me spitballing out some ways to fix some issues.

Another huge problem facing the game is Power Creep. We've been playing the same. damn. STFs for years now, but our ships have become more and more powerful, as has our gear. Fleet ships added more durability and more console slots, but the content remained as challenging as it ever was. We're blasting through ESTFs with no challenge, and no incentive to seek out challenge (this is a biggie!). Our benchmark for challenge in this game is essentially ISE, since most people just do that once and hour instead of doing more challenging content like CSE pugs, or even Hive.

Cryptic needs to either add new, non-Borg STFs, or find some way to lure us into more challenging content. Right now our MkXII weapons and full MACO/Omega Force/whatever sets are going to waste on easy stuff because we have no reason to do anything else.

Another issue is that there's no enforcing of the Heal-Tank-DPS trinity in this game. It's so DPS focused without requiring any support. Of course Tac/Escorts will rule this game, when there's nothing for anyone else to do.

In short, escorts aren't the problem -- the rest of the game is. I admit, that sounds dumb on its face, but it's true.

Last edited by thratch1; 02-24-2013 at 11:12 PM.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 135
# 3
02-24-2013, 11:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thratch1 View Post
Escorts don't need nerfs.

The problem with cruisers and science vessels lies in Engineering and Science abilities. One of the Galaxy-R's biggest problems is that it's loaded with Engineering Boff slots -- the same number of Engineering slots that the Defiant-R has in Tactical slots, incidentally. If Eng and Sci abilities were better, then those ships would be better.

I once suggested that they add an Engineering ability that boosts weapon performance based on the amount of crew a ship has, with huge dropoffs after 1,000. I don't think anyone replied to that, but it was just me spitballing out some ways to fix some issues.

Another huge problem facing the game is Power Creep. We've been playing the same. damn. STFs for years now, but our ships have become more and more powerful, as has our gear. Fleet ships added more durability and more console slots, but the content remained as challenging as it ever was. We're blasting through ESTFs with no challenge, and no incentive to seek out challenge (this is a biggie!). Our benchmark for challenge in this game is essentially ISE, since most people just do that once and hour instead of doing more challenging content like CSE pugs, or even Hive.

Cryptic needs to either add new, non-Borg STFs, or find some way to lure us into more challenging content. Right now our MkXII weapons and full MACO/Omega Force/whatever sets are going to waste on easy stuff because we have no reason to do anything else.

Another issue is that there's no enforcing of the Heal-Tank-DPS trinity in this game. It's so DPS focused without requiring any support. Of course Tac/Escorts will rule this game, when there's nothing for anyone else to do.

In short, escorts aren't the problem -- the rest of the game is. I admit, that sounds dumb on its face, but it's true.
/agree to about 90%.

All the nerfs to tanking/healing didn't help Sci/Crus 1 bit either. I remember when my excel could live thru alphas, but that was before the dark times, before the skillbox nerfs and the nerfs that came with F2P. Then, the beam ACC nerf really iced the cake for crusiers. After this, most crusier people I knew were trying excel cannon boats but personaly I just could never see the reason. You've lost before you start. You want cannons?, fly the escort as it's got the turn rate and engine power to support them.

I just had enough zen from the Lifer account to get 1 of the new escorts and the thing "tanks" better than that excel ever did, all with the exact same build, shield, engine, deflector, and eng/sci consoles. I had left STO for several months due to the fact I just don't want to fly a escort, but this time it's, "can't beat em, join em". "Throw that DPS".

100% correct on this game being total DPS based and that's a sad fact. There is no other role in the entire game than how much shear DPS you can throw. That's why DPS sells so well in the store.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,735
# 4
02-25-2013, 05:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thratch1 View Post

In short, escorts aren't the problem -- the rest of the game is. I admit, that sounds dumb on its face, but it's true.
I m sorry but without turning the escort back into a glass canon, there simply won't be any need for more healing. Because of its low hull escort should be the ship afffected most by non burst damage.

Without nerfing escorts, pressure damage won't make a come-back, and healers will still be obsolete. Buffing cruisers and sci ships alone won't do the trick, escorts need nerfing, and they need it bad.
Joined 06.10
PvP 2010-2011
PvP 2012-2013
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,133
# 5
03-05-2013, 05:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thratch1 View Post
Escorts don't need nerfs.

The problem with cruisers and science vessels lies in Engineering and Science abilities. One of the Galaxy-R's biggest problems is that it's loaded with Engineering Boff slots -- the same number of Engineering slots that the Defiant-R has in Tactical slots, incidentally. If Eng and Sci abilities were better, then those ships would be better.

I once suggested that they add an Engineering ability that boosts weapon performance based on the amount of crew a ship has, with huge dropoffs after 1,000. I don't think anyone replied to that, but it was just me spitballing out some ways to fix some issues.

Another huge problem facing the game is Power Creep. We've been playing the same. damn. STFs for years now, but our ships have become more and more powerful, as has our gear. Fleet ships added more durability and more console slots, but the content remained as challenging as it ever was. We're blasting through ESTFs with no challenge, and no incentive to seek out challenge (this is a biggie!). Our benchmark for challenge in this game is essentially ISE, since most people just do that once and hour instead of doing more challenging content like CSE pugs, or even Hive.

Cryptic needs to either add new, non-Borg STFs, or find some way to lure us into more challenging content. Right now our MkXII weapons and full MACO/Omega Force/whatever sets are going to waste on easy stuff because we have no reason to do anything else.

Another issue is that there's no enforcing of the Heal-Tank-DPS trinity in this game. It's so DPS focused without requiring any support. Of course Tac/Escorts will rule this game, when there's nothing for anyone else to do.

In short, escorts aren't the problem -- the rest of the game is. I admit, that sounds dumb on its face, but it's true.
agreed, it sound stupid to say that the game needs to change, but it is spot on the problem of sto. There is far too less need for a tank or a sci ship in this game.

personally i would have made ships in STO like heros in DOTA or LOL...inherent abilities that are unique to the ship. STO tries to implement that via consoles, but imho fails at it.
Surprisingly they the ground combat (mainly the way kits work) have similarities to dota heros.
Also an interesting idea would be a pvp scenario like dota
Go pro or go home
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,063
# 6
03-05-2013, 05:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by baudl View Post
agreed, it sound stupid to say that the game needs to change, but it is spot on the problem of sto. There is far too less need for a tank or a sci ship in this game.
imo the need for tanking and sci is not too low. imo the problem lies, that sci and tanking cannot be done well in other ships. as in cruisers cannot tank better enough to make a difference, and make them worth playing. you blow up by a 50k torp hit in an escort? you gonna probably die from that in a cruiser too. you want grav well on the field? put gw1 in one of the escorts, and its enough for all intents and purposes in pve, no need for fancy sci ships to create stronger ones, or the ones that are stronger, they dont make much difference, to need a sci for that
Captain
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 5,394
# 7
02-24-2013, 11:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by izariel44 View Post
There have been many threads on this but mums the word at PW. Every patch makes escorts more and more powerful and cruisers and science ships more and more obsolete. I rarely ever see a science ship anymore and it seems that the only people that play cruisers are those that have sentimental attachments to them (like me).

I was one of the originals that started this game on the first day and chose an engineer captain. Oh, that I had chosen a tac captain like 90% of players today are playing.

Tactical/escort captains have insane damage, healing, maneuverability, and survivability now. There is no upside to playing a cruiser and its a cold day in *&^*&* when you would play a science ship over an escort.

I dont need to go into specifics. There are more threads on this topic than you can shake a plasma injector at, but this needs to be addressed, soon.

Rebalance the ships- give them all roles once again. Nerf escorts, buff cruisers, and really buff science ships. It is desperately needed.
As an engineer you can fly an escort and do insane damage too. The only difference is the captain abilities. Attack Pattern Alpha, Fire on my Mark being the big two. All the other stuff you can get trained on your own BOFFs through the exchange or by a fleetmate. And being an engineer, you miss out on Alpha and Fire on my Mark, but get some extra defensive oomph from Miracle Worker and Rotate Shield Frequency.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,241
# 8
02-25-2013, 12:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thratch1 View Post
Escorts don't need nerfs.

...

Another issue is that there's no enforcing of the Heal-Tank-DPS trinity in this game. It's so DPS focused without requiring any support. Of course Tac/Escorts will rule this game, when there's nothing for anyone else to do.

In short, escorts aren't the problem -- the rest of the game is. I admit, that sounds dumb on its face, but it's true.
Yes they do need nerfs. Hard.

See the issue is NOT that sci ships were killed off and cruisers are largely irrelevant for the game content (they are but thats a side problem). The issue is that escorts have been made TOO GOOD to the point where the other 2 ship types are irrelevant.

Here's something for you to think about:

My sci captain used to be a die-hard tier 5 nebula. Pre-F2P (when things were balanced and ships had their own roles) my ship was a master debuffer and crowd controller. Neither escorts not cruisers could even dream of matching my performance when it came to shield tanking and royally weakening super-hard NPC's to the point where my weak weapon damage output brought it down almost as fast as a cruiser/escort. I WAS science incarnate.

post-f2p. The nebula simply cannot tank nor debuff nor put out damage. Its hard coded so it just can not.

... so I fly an escort. The escort has a funny thing... I only use hazard 1 and emg2 shield 2 ... those are my ONLY healing abilities.

and with them, thanks to the escort's insane defense rating through speed (speed tanking) and atk omega capability I fly circles around elite tac cubes and gates watching the damage spam on me go : MISS MISS MISS MISS MISS MISS MISS MISS. In my nebula... and even on my other toon's supertank voquv ... I wouldve been hit every single time despite both toons having the same captain skills when it comes to speed tanking boxes.

The difference comes from the escort ship itself. Plus I have more than twice the firepower and most pathetic of all, I can do just as weakly effective 'science' with a lt cmdr sci boff (MVAE) than I do in a Nebula (alleged fully dedicated sci ship). I tank better, fly faster, hit ten times harder.

and I heal with 2 miserly abilities.

did I mention I've threat control 9 from when I thought my nebula could tank? haha.. yeah.. my little escort gets a ton of attention. MISS MISS MISS MISS MISS...

its a borg whiffmobile.

So.. sci in tac ship > sci in sci ship.

The game itself is geared completely towards dps and tanking nothing else. Its the only things the devs give a rat's butt about ... because its the only thing they can monetize with little effort.


Dig up my threads from over a year ago concerning Perfect World. You will see I was right when I said they turn any game they buy into a stupid dps-centered, pay-2-win, cookie-cutter-for-all templates grindfest game until the monetizing became so ridiculous players left the game. Then they would close the game off, use the engine to make a clone of it with a different flavor and start the scamcycle again.

we are now in the starting point of that monetizing. the cookie-cutter phase is ending as they herd the players into just one type of ship and then they will begin to hash out more and more powerful stuff so that any ship or item you buy now will become obsolete in a matter of months.
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Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 961
# 9
02-25-2013, 12:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmdrskyfaller View Post
Yes they do need nerfs. Hard.
Not gonna happen. Nerfing existing ships that some folks might pay for will cause more player abandonment than any amount of concern over monetization or "pay-to-win" will, and in a much shorter period.

Just as a car maker won't pull the bucket seats or 4-point harness out of the made-for-track-day sports car you just bought because the people who bought the everyday version for half the price complained that you were too fast or loud, it would be in no one's interest to go about nerfing things people paid for unless they were literally game-breaking. And no, breaking PVP is not a valid concern in this regard.

Instead of nerfing escorts, cruisers and SVs should get buffs and while more and better content should be debuted. That's actually less of a pipe dream than demanding nerfs, and benefits everyone as well as the game, rather than just the dissatisfied minority.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 59
# 10
02-25-2013, 12:30 AM
As I just posted in another thread my cruiser can out dps many escorts it just that their dps is focused and fast, but that's what they are meant to do while the cruiser is a heavy tanky ship that can whittle down that escort over time using debuffs, strips and immobilization, both work just fine for me.
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