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Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,626
# 1 Synergy - Roles and Classes
03-22-2013, 07:31 AM
I've decided that I agree an alternative approach is needed in regard to the whole Tac/Enginer/Sci/Escort/Cruiser/Sci question.

Nerfing Tac/Escort is not the answer. Neither is buffing DPS for Eng/Cruiser or Sci/Sci.

Cruisers and Science Vessels don't need DPS... They do, however, need an effective and satisfying niche in both PvP and PvE gameplay.

I believe that Cruisers need to have a synergistic relationship with the other ship types and that Engineering Captain and BOFF abilities need to have synergy with the Tactical and Science abilities.

If the point of an Engineer is to make systems work better, then synergy is a good answer. He should affect certain Tac and Science abilities so they work more effectively than they do on their own. He should be able to do that not only with his allies but also with his own BOFFs.

The synergies should take the form of side-benefits that add special effects to the use of a power. Think of it as cross-career, team-friendly, "Space Combos" that are the realm of the Engineer.

A couple of (probably bad) examples I thought of:

1. Emergency Power to Weapons temporarily interacts with Beam Overload and causes a drain of Aux power on the target (if BO is fired within 5 seconds)

2. Distributed Energy Modulation interacts with Jam Sensors and gives the attacker's beams a chance to proc a Scramble Sensors effect.

Tac and Science Captains don't lose out completely because their own Engineering BOFF's would also have synergies, but less powerful synergies than you can get in a Cruiser with a high-ranking Engineer.

Synergy could also be used with Science in a different way.

If the Engineer's paradigm is to make systems work better, the Science officer's paradigm could be creative problem-solving. In other words, they don't just analyze sensor readings and make weird things happen. They apply scientific principles to develop new solutions.

The question is how to quantify that in game terms.

One answer could be another type of "Combo" system where specific combinations of Science abilities in specific orders trigger specific additional effects.

For example...

1. Chaining Hazard Emitters and Polarize Hull has a chance of reflecting plasma attacks in a way similar to Feedback Pulse.

2. Chaining Gravity Well and Tyken's Rift increases the chance to proc for all chroniton weapons for 20 seconds.

This "Synergy" idea has at least couple of serious "cons":

1. Not a short-term solution.
2. Increases balance complexity and more opportunities for imbalance.

If you think about it, Tac/Escorts already have their own kind of synergy where the Tactical abilities improve the ship's tactical capabilities and combinations of powers make the Tac in an Escort even more effective.
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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,186
# 2
03-22-2013, 08:35 AM
Quote:
2. Distributed Energy Modulation interacts with Jam Sensors and gives the attacker's beams a chance to proc a Scramble Sensors effect.
I like that one. Aren't there some of these already (besides the well known TAC ones) ? Something like an acetone beam and feedback pulse triggering a viral matrix type effect ?
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Commander
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 278
# 3
03-22-2013, 09:25 AM
I like the idea of ability combos for engineering and science; I think that science could really do with it more than engineers though, as most Emergency Power to X abilities already have great synergy with other abilities. I already frequently use Emergency Power to Weapons before a Beam Overload as it significantly reduces the penalty of firing it, and with my already high power transfer I gain an improvement to damage overall when I do this; even more so with EPS Power Transfer and/or Nadion Inversion.


One combo that engineers could really do with however is something to intentionally draw aggro from NPC enemies, as currently the only sources of threat are really the skill, embassy consoles, and damage. But personally even if I were going for a full-on tank I would rather draw aggro when it's most beneficial, rather than doing so all the time, as you can't currently rely on anyone to back you up with healing abilities. A combo such as Aceton Beam + Reverse Shield Polarity however could be great if they combined to instantly redirect the target's attacks against you (though maybe that should just be an in-built feature of Aceton Beam?) as it's pretty much the ultimate tank combo, though you don't currently see anyone using it very much; personally I have both abilities as I find them really useful, but most ships seem to favour slotting lots of short cool-down abilities over the slower ones, so combos would be a big bonus to those.

Anyway, an "irresistible aggro" combo would be very useful as you could then do it on-demand when your team-mates are threatened, in order to immediately draw fire away from them and give them a chance to recover. It could possibly apply in PvP as well in a similar way to sensor interference, by making you the only targetable enemy so long as you're in range.
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Last edited by haravikk; 03-22-2013 at 09:27 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,000
# 4
03-22-2013, 12:37 PM
I like the idea of powers interacting with each other in a synergistic way, I think it really could do with being slanted towards science abilities though as engineering and tactical skills already work well with each other and themselves, though less pronounced with engineering and engineering. Science however I find quite lacking with the synergy with the exception of gravity well as it not only makes grouping targets up for AoE damage easy but the warp core explosions increase damage significantly.

Just so we are clear to people reading this, synergy is like having 2+2=7, it is meant to do more than the sum of its parts. So you would perhaps see a boost in each skills damage or effects and maybe an extra effect.
Captain
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 2,557
# 5
03-22-2013, 10:12 PM
having captain/career abilities synergise with boff powers does seem interesting.

but it looks like this idea pushes, rather than fixes the current broken class system we have already, that needs to be fixed at foundation level before painting over it with yet more systems, and as you say, this idea does introduce more opportunities for imbalance to occur.

and yea, tacs synergise with (boosts the damage) of all abilities that cause damage, not just tac abilities.
no other class gets that advantage.
If you like the RPG trinity, then you hate MMOs, you hate working, competitive fair PvP, you hate balanced engaging solo content,
and,
you hate PvE "adventure zones". because the trinity is incompatible with any of these.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 210
# 6
03-23-2013, 12:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegeek View Post
This "Synergy" idea has at least couple of serious "cons":

1. Not a short-term solution.
2. Increases balance complexity and more opportunities for imbalance.

If you think about it, Tac/Escorts already have their own kind of synergy where the Tactical abilities improve the ship's tactical capabilities and combinations of powers make the Tac in an Escort even more effective.
I agree that a more analytical approach is needed to increase enjoyment for everyone. However, I think it should start with the user. One of the biggest mistakes I see with new users, indeed I made the same mistake initially, was to not focus my traits to match my profession. Once I spec'd hard for tactical the game was a lot more fun for me.

Synergy is a great idea and could easily manifest itself in tertiary effects to present power combinations. However, first and foremost, synergy should exist between profession and the ship type that matches that profession. By this I mean something more than a cruiser having four engineer consoles, etc. Perhaps, say, an engineer in a cruiser receiving 5000 points added to both shields and hull, and maybe even a high bonus defense for sitting stationary in space and hosing things down with beams.
Captain
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 2,557
# 7
03-23-2013, 01:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chuckingram View Post
Synergy is a great idea and could easily manifest itself in tertiary effects to present power combinations. However, first and foremost, synergy should exist between profession and the ship type that matches that profession. By this I mean something more than a cruiser having four engineer consoles, etc. Perhaps, say, an engineer in a cruiser receiving 5000 points added to both shields and hull, and maybe even a high bonus defense for sitting stationary in space and hosing things down with beams.
because forcing people to play in a predefined way with a specific set of gear is more fun than making it a tactical decision as to how a player uses a class of ship...

obsolete thinking.
If you like the RPG trinity, then you hate MMOs, you hate working, competitive fair PvP, you hate balanced engaging solo content,
and,
you hate PvE "adventure zones". because the trinity is incompatible with any of these.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 210
# 8
03-23-2013, 02:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by skollulfr View Post
because forcing people to play in a predefined way with a specific set of gear is more fun than making it a tactical decision as to how a player uses a class of ship...

obsolete thinking.
You may have read what I said, I don't know, but you didn't waste any time at all not understanding it. The only thing that qualifies as obsolete in this thread is that same tired, sarcastic BS that's to often used to cover for a lack of real thought. BG started this thread seemingly to address the wall-to-wall whining about the way things work in this game. I assumed that the idea was to bat around some ideas, which is what I offered, not to poke at each other for the sake of poking at each other.

In the future, just ignore what I post, please.

Last edited by chuckingram; 03-23-2013 at 06:54 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 2,557
# 9
03-23-2013, 11:04 AM
yea, i noticed that its an attempt at introducing new ideas, as is the case with every 'ideas' thread that could be created.
however, that is where i take issue with your post.
specifically
Quote:
Synergy is a great idea and could easily manifest itself in tertiary effects to present power combinations. However, first and foremost, synergy should exist between profession and the ship type that matches that profession.
''matches that profession''?

instead of actually bringing up new ideas, you rephrased the tac/escort, engie/cruiser, sci/sci paradigm we have now.
that is the idea every trinity advocate on the forum has. i had thought the parody would have made this more obvious to you with out having to point it out directly.

why cant we have engie/escorts that can work out is frigates/destroyers? or sci/escorts that work out as a sort or recon class? or tac/cruisers as artillary/force projectors? or any other combination a player can derive from diverse rather than closed endgame mechanics.

none of which you can happen if you start off with a system that is prejudice against such combinations
If you like the RPG trinity, then you hate MMOs, you hate working, competitive fair PvP, you hate balanced engaging solo content,
and,
you hate PvE "adventure zones". because the trinity is incompatible with any of these.

Last edited by skollulfr; 03-23-2013 at 11:10 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,000
# 10
03-23-2013, 11:47 AM
Kind of agree with skollulfr about the engi/escort, tac/cruiser ideas of changing the way a ship and class behaves. There's too much you are an cruiser you must tank, you are a sci, heal me, ***** mentality. Also as pointed out tactical captains have synergy with way too many ships and skills. Engineers and science captains have less synergy but I think some of that comes from the way missions focus only on destroying enemies and there are no other options to win.
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