Lieutenant
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 92
# 1 The Problem with FvK and FvF
03-25-2013, 10:40 PM
As many of you have noticed, there is not much in the way of FvK PvP outside of elite groups, Fleets, etc...

Klingon ships on average seem to be more powerful then Federation vessels on both turning speed and general damage. Obviously, not discounting that there are some very skilled PvPers on the Klingon side that use their ships well but this is not to point fingers but to address some of the problems with Klingon PvP so that hopefully this will encourage more people to do it.

There are problems with PvP in general that I would like to address here as well.

*disclaimer* These are opinions based on my observations over the last 3 years. Please do not start mouthing off but offer constructive argument. Who knows, you may be right. I'm not a believer in creating "elitism" in the game so I'll happily admit when I am wrong.

1) Klingon PvP is Boring = What I mean to say is that Klingon PvP follows a predictable pattern. I have been in several matches when ships will just decloak and hammer away at a poor ship, damaging it hopelessly beyond all point of healing.

2) Science Spam is not fun = One particular skill ruins PvP in general I think. I realise that this is NOT unique to the Klingon side. I am off course talking about "Subnuclonic Beam" which can often be the deciding factor in any match. Sub-Nuc simply put, does too much in removing all buffs and I propose a way to fix this.

Science Sub-Nuc = It only removes "healing" buffs such as Reverse Shield Polarity and Engineers should have the ability that reduces power as well as coupling with Aceton beam to remove tactical buffs.

Simply put, a certain fleet is terrible for this but Sub-Nuc spam has got to go. There has to be some protection from being sub-nuc'd multiple times.

Simply put, players need to have some sort of "code of honor" regarding certain abilities in PvP.

Now I've given some of my bugbears, lets hear yours...

Last edited by janewaywarrior; 03-25-2013 at 10:43 PM.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 270
# 2
03-25-2013, 11:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by janewaywarrior View Post
Klingon ships on average seem to be more powerful then Federation vessels on both turning speed and general damage.
The BoPs have higher turn rate, but that's not "on average" for KDF. What do you mean by "general" damage? KDF tends to focus more on burst damage while Feds have more potential for sustained damage if they can survive the initial burst. If you can make it through the first alpha then KDF ships end up running away much of the time so they aren't able to do much damage - not to mention their tendency to insta-plode which means...well...no damage.

A lot of people don't like FvK because they can't survive the alpha, which has less to do with KDF ships than it does their emphasis on offensive playstyles.

That being said, a large percentage of people fly lockbox ships so the KDF/UFP ship difference often doesn't play a part in the outcome of a match. Attitude and expectations, however, can decide the match before it even starts.
K'eg/T'lol/Dude/Yak
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,377
# 3
03-25-2013, 11:42 PM
Quote:
Klingon ships on average seem to be more powerful then Federation vessels on both turning speed and general damage.
I doubt that this is a good generalisation. While this may be true for Klingon battlecruisers, this is certainly not so for raptors vs escorts. For example, Klingons have no 5-tac console raptors, while the Feds have 3. Raptors are also generally out-turned by escorts, with maximums of 16 (Fleet Som'raw) vs 15 (Defiant).

Birds of Prey are a different matter. They are generally outgunned by Federation escorts, and can be countered fairly easily with Federation science vessels.

Quote:
1) Klingon PvP is Boring = What I mean to say is that Klingon PvP follows a predictable pattern. I have been in several matches when ships will just decloak and hammer away at a poor ship, damaging it hopelessly beyond all point of healing.
Are you referring to KvK or KvF? In either case, I would hardly characterise being hit by multiple alphas as being "damaged hopelessly". It is in such focus-fire alpha scenarios that teamwork comes into play. In order to compensate for damage from multiple ships, it is necessary for healing from multiple ships. Is this not logical?

In the case of getting alpha-striked by a single ship, if one is alert, one can tank the initial strike fairly easily, with the aid of various resistance buffs, and RSP. Buffing up can be heard, and that is the cue for a quick Sensor Scan and putting up basic defensive buffs.

If a single ship is getting sequentially alpha-striked, healing should be staggered, and the team should begin focusing fire themselves. In essence, countering is fairly easily done with teamwork.

Quote:
2) Science Spam is not fun = One particular skill ruins PvP in general I think. I realise that this is NOT unique to the Klingon side. I am off course talking about "Subnuclonic Beam" which can often be the deciding factor in any match. Sub-Nuc simply put, does too much in removing all buffs and I propose a way to fix this.
Subnuke is necessary for what it does. Bear in mind that it can be cleared easily using Sci Team, which any healer worth their salt would carry. If one person is being repeatedly subnuked, it is time for everyone to begin tossing heals on that person, and for that person to go fully defensive on his/her energy levels. Again, teamwork is the key here. In the event of the enemy team carrying sufficient subnukes to paint your entire team, they are not going to be capable of the spike damage that a Tactical would have. As such, it would be time for your team to begin spamming Sci Teams and RSP.

Furthermore, one should imagine what things would be like without the existence of Subnuke. Without it, games would be a plain-Jane cycle of damage and heal. In effect, things would be boring without Sci spam. Without it, Tacs would be the undisputed kings of the battlefield.

Subnuke also carries an opportunity cost. To have it, you need a Sci, and so you lose a Tac' Attack Pattern Alpha. This significantly reduces the spike that the team can have as a whole. One might argue that having Subnuke removes the need for spike, but I doubt that, as passive healing is very powerful at the moment. Also, Subnuke's effect can be cleared, but the additional damage from an Attack Pattern Alpha cannot.

Subnuke also carries a 2-minute cooldown, but is countered by an ability that has a 30-second cooldown. Given that the counter can also be cast by team members, it is not truly unbalanced.

Quote:
Science Sub-Nuc = It only removes "healing" buffs such as Reverse Shield Polarity and Engineers should have the ability that reduces power as well as coupling with Aceton beam to remove tactical buffs.
While I disagree with your characterisation of Subnuc as OP, this is an interesting change nonetheless. However, it would be very difficult to categorise abilities like Tactical Team under "healing" or "tactical".

Quote:
Simply put, a certain fleet is terrible for this but Sub-Nuc spam has got to go. There has to be some protection from being sub-nuc'd multiple times.

Simply put, players need to have some sort of "code of honor" regarding certain abilities in PvP.
Science Team is supposed to provide immunity for a certain amount of time, but I do not know if it works. If it did, then there would be protection.

As for a "code of honor", such a thing cannot be enforced or maintained in the queues. It is a zero-sum game, where the first offender would escalate circumstances and cause the problem to re-occur.

As for private tournaments, there tend to be agreements, but there is always much debate over this. Things are not necessarily as black-and-white as you make them out to be.

That said, although a code of honor would be a nice thing to have, Subnuke should not be a part of it.

In essence, although your points may be possibly valid in a 1v1 scenario, many of your arguments break down with the presence of teamwork and alertness.
Take it easy!

Ishmael@scurry5: A Nibbling Sci
"Squeak?"
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,527
# 4
03-26-2013, 01:45 PM
Klingons are not OP. Klingons are UP compared to the Federation when you look at everything and not just microscope a few minor parts of the Klingon Empire.

What do I mean?

Federation is more likely to get C-store goodies that could be considered "Pay to Win".
Federation is more likely to get Content because there is a larger portion of the player base playing Federation side.
Federation has more and some times better Escorts then the Klingons version, the Raptor.
Federation has more, and most of the time better Science ships since the Klingons only have 1.

Klingons have more of the "Broken" or "Overpowered" Consoles and Carrier Pets. (Which slowly changes with each newly introduced Lockbox)
Klingons have more Cloak ships. But sacrifice Hull and Shield power for Cloak.

The Federation is currently the epitome of the song anything you can do I can do better.
You think that your beta test was bad?
Think about this:
American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 488
# 5
03-26-2013, 02:16 PM
my observation:

i played pvp as a fed for quite awhile. i consider myself a middle of the pack pvp player. i am use to losing against the klingons probably at least 7 out of 10 times. as a fed i have the best ships, best gear, best consoles, etc.

now recently i have started playing my level 50 klingon alt. i use mk xi weapons on a peghqu' destroyer. i absolutely destroy the fed in pvp. my klingon team in pvp just about always wins.

based on this simple observation i am thinking there is definitely a balance issue which i'm sure is no surprise to anyone.
http://startrek.44thfleet.com/
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,001
# 6
03-26-2013, 03:07 PM
I don't know. I'm a queue guy. Not in a PvP fleet, not elite or anything. Relatively new to pvp, here. Here's my experience, in this:

I once did a couple of pvp matches on my feds, got steamrolled, went back to pve. Then got bored with pve, and I tried pvp some more, this time on my KDF's, mostly. It still wasn't pretty.

Then I read up on builds and tactics, practised hard, tried different things and eventually got better. I now fly BoP's, Battlecruisers, Carriers and the occasional Raptor, with various degrees of success, but definitely pulling my weight. Flying my ships of choice I tend to approach the top of charts in damage and kills, now, even though I'm most definitely not a top KDF player. I was pleased when my tac in a BoP started to get top score in kills/damage, once in a while.

Now, here's the kicker. I recently checked back on my feds, with the knowledge I now had. I found I had accidentally gotten them decent traits (elusive, accurate, etc), and that I got them all the pre-S7 mk xii rep Sets, and various sets of mk xii [borg] weaponry - not perfect, but definitely competitive to the stuff I use on my KDF's.

I set up some decent builds, queued up on my tac, and my team lost big time. Tried again, wiped again. Both times I was the top damage dealer/killer, easily. Still, we got wiped big time because there was no inkling of team play or cohesion. I called targets, but nobody responded or acted on them. If I didn't, nobody else did, and everybody got picked off one by one - by packs of 2-3 KDF players.

Got the same experience queueing up on my sci and eng. Both still topping the charts quite often, and generally surviving alpha's my team members didn't - I like to think that's because I have in-depth experience in decloaking alpha strikes.

For me, there are two main differences between fed and kdf in open queue pvp.
1: the cloak, which lets you (KDF players and potentially those flying Defiants and Gal-X's) decide when to strike, giving you an edge, even though you generally give up precious survivability as a trade-off.

and 2: teamwork. And this one is the most important one, in my opinion. Almost all KDF queued matches I'm in has people calling targets, and if they don't, I will. Additionally, there's often crosshealing occurring naturally and people zipping over to get a teammate's attacker. These things hardly ever happen in open queued fed teams, in my experience. Even when I call targets it's only 1 or 2 people at best who focus fire.

Believe me, when Fed teams have good teamwork going, the kdf ships suddenly aren't that overpowered.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,764
# 7
03-27-2013, 12:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by twam View Post
I don't know. I'm a queue guy. Not in a PvP fleet, not elite or anything. Relatively new to pvp, here. Here's my experience, in this:

I once did a couple of pvp matches on my feds, got steamrolled, went back to pve. Then got bored with pve, and I tried pvp some more, this time on my KDF's, mostly. It still wasn't pretty.

Then I read up on builds and tactics, practised hard, tried different things and eventually got better. I now fly BoP's, Battlecruisers, Carriers and the occasional Raptor, with various degrees of success, but definitely pulling my weight. Flying my ships of choice I tend to approach the top of charts in damage and kills, now, even though I'm most definitely not a top KDF player. I was pleased when my tac in a BoP started to get top score in kills/damage, once in a while.

Now, here's the kicker. I recently checked back on my feds, with the knowledge I now had. I found I had accidentally gotten them decent traits (elusive, accurate, etc), and that I got them all the pre-S7 mk xii rep Sets, and various sets of mk xii [borg] weaponry - not perfect, but definitely competitive to the stuff I use on my KDF's.

I set up some decent builds, queued up on my tac, and my team lost big time. Tried again, wiped again. Both times I was the top damage dealer/killer, easily. Still, we got wiped big time because there was no inkling of team play or cohesion. I called targets, but nobody responded or acted on them. If I didn't, nobody else did, and everybody got picked off one by one - by packs of 2-3 KDF players.

Got the same experience queueing up on my sci and eng. Both still topping the charts quite often, and generally surviving alpha's my team members didn't - I like to think that's because I have in-depth experience in decloaking alpha strikes.

For me, there are two main differences between fed and kdf in open queue pvp.
1: the cloak, which lets you (KDF players and potentially those flying Defiants and Gal-X's) decide when to strike, giving you an edge, even though you generally give up precious survivability as a trade-off.

and 2: teamwork. And this one is the most important one, in my opinion. Almost all KDF queued matches I'm in has people calling targets, and if they don't, I will. Additionally, there's often crosshealing occurring naturally and people zipping over to get a teammate's attacker. These things hardly ever happen in open queued fed teams, in my experience. Even when I call targets it's only 1 or 2 people at best who focus fire.

Believe me, when Fed teams have good teamwork going, the kdf ships suddenly aren't that overpowered.
^THIS is the truth as I have observed it.^

It's why I thank the Great Maker for Kirking feds-else I'd never get any kills at all.

I run four KDF toons:

A L50 (orion)Tac from pre-S7 in a Norgh(Pre S7 Assimilated set (Polaron boat), all four components) or Hoh'sus(Fleet version, Pre S7 Omega MkXI set on Disruptors)

A L50 (orion) Sci pre-S7 in either a Kar'Fi (pre S7 Assimilated 4P), or B'rel(Pre S7 MkX Omega 3P).

A L50 (Joined Trill) Engie post-S7 in a Hegh'ta with MkX(!) Jem'set 3p and Polarons

A L49(Ferasan) Tac (recent-as in last couple months) in a Hegh'ta with 'drop gear' (generic stuff, Disruptor build.)


I don't own any post-S7 Rep gear at all. I have four KDF toons and if I'm grinding at all, it's for my Fleet, (because that's how I rrroooww, rooww, rooaarrwww...that's what I Like) with the eventual outcome of buying Fleet gear to outfit them, instead of spending weeks to months to grind PvE (which has become dead boring to me. I ONLY do it often enough to support my Fleet's long journey to T5.)

There's the Resume', now for the meat of the matter...

When a fed team has their **** together in a 5x5 match, whether it's C&H or Arena, and my Puggies don't, we get our asses kicked. Period. When we do, it's 50/50 chance and usually nice and close (best kind of match-within 1 either way win/lose).

When they don't, it doesn't really matter WHAT kind of **** they have-if it were 3 bugs and 2 Temporals or 2 Bugs, a Kumari, 1 Temp and a Vesta, all tricked out witht he right consoles and lobi gear?

If the Feds don't play with their head out of their fourth point of contact, even my NEWEST toons, the Engie or the Kitty, can still rack up the kill-count. It's very simple-if the Feds have their **** together they're competitive, if they're GOOD and have their **** together, they'll dominate, but if (as is the usual case) they're out Kirking it Up by themselves and counting on bought hardware? well...that's where even the worst KDF will win, if not outright dominate to a ridiculously one-sided degree.

PvP, esp. que matches, depends heavily on teamwork to win-focus fire, cross healing, Targeted d-buffs, it doesn't matter if it's C&H or Arena, it doesn't matter what level you are, or whether you have the shiniest new toys, if your team sucks because they won't work together, you're going to lose the match even if you dominate the kill count, damage listing, or healing numbers.

****ty games I like to play as a Klink:

Fox/Hounds. (location: Arena match, space). Here's how it works:

I pick a bad target with my engie-in-a-BoP. (this game works best with an engie in a bop...)

I call the target, de-cloak alpha with DEM3, APO, BO and CRF2 with THY 1. This is NOT enough to drop most Feddie targets-it IS enough to get their attention, however, and make one or more of them burn buffs.

My wingmen, then subnuke the target/VM him, Hit him with Tractors and alphas of their own. This usually makes him burn up Tac teams, or Sci teams, or gets him tossed sci and engie teams-the idea is that the other TWO KDF are going to take his supporters out.

MY role, is to survive suddenly getting everyone's attention LONG enough, (RSP, RSF, MW, EPS, second copy of APO and TT) to run-away-with-pursuers. Endgame plan here, is to trade 1 ship (me) for 2-3 Feds thanks to my teammates.

This tends to work embarassingly well, seems that a lot of Fed players never LEARN that the engie hitting you with purple tickle-rays because his juice is going to engines and shields, isn't the guy you need to take out in a hurry.

I have taken this toon into matches where I died 3 or 4 times, was the ONLY KDF casualty, (and only score the Fed team got) while my pugmates have racked up 3 or 4 kills apiece every time I go down.

That's "Fox and Hounds." and with a Premade or Pugmade team, it works even BETTER- reason being that BoPs are universally known as "Soft targets", it wouldn't work in a Vor'cha, because those can take LOTS of damage and everyone KNOWS IT-you can't get the same "I'm gonna kill him, gonna kill him-yup-yup-yup" response in a Cruiser. It's the same kind of mentality that marketing people use when they get you to buy lockboxes or lottery tickets-the easy bonanza.

Feds fall for it, but so do KDF players when a Fed uses a variation of it-usually a Sci ship, Kumari, or other seemingly easy kill rolls out at about 11KM ahead of their fedball-the fedball in this case is waiting to trip their engine batteries, Deuterium, or APO and focus-fire the first decloaker that makes a go at their point man, while tossing said point-man heals/buffs to keep him dangling in front of an impatient KDF pug-group.

But the FED version requires actual TEAMWORK to pull off-for some reason, 'fox and hounds' works even when nobody's brought the idea up on the KDF side, and that's a lot to do with how under-powered KDF ships, esp. the ubiquitous Bird of Prey, are.
"when you're out of Birds of Prey, you're out of ships."
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,153
# 8
03-26-2013, 02:29 PM
Best Shield Punch: KDF
Best Power Drain: KDF
Best Value Cheese: KDF
Best Ships: Fed (well, non faction are - but if you're comparing Fed vs. KDF)

If it were the first three each and every single FvK match - then I could definitely see the complaint. Unfortunately, it is rarely that case. Outside of a few Premades that just like to ROFLstomp PUGs, most KDF know that if they go that route - nobody will queue. So they don't.

They just beat the Feds with better skill and better teamwork while using inferior ships.
Vice Admiral Geist, Klingon Science Officer
V.S.S. Oracle, D'Kyr-class Science Vessel
Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 330
# 9
03-27-2013, 01:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
Best Shield Punch: KDF
Best Power Drain: KDF
Best Value Cheese: KDF
Best Ships: Fed (well, non faction are - but if you're comparing Fed vs. KDF)
Fleet defiant's decloaking alfa and /or the new kumari shield stripping overload hit are in my opinion the the best shield punchers in this moment.

Best value Cheese :except aceton's ( i don't have them btw) and leech,all other consoles are available to federation at a much lower price.On kdf side you have to buy a c-store ship for a console ,as fed you can buy it from exchange very cheap.

Best power drain :here it is again the comparison between siphon drones and danubes.Which are worse ? Hard to tell.Both will stop you and wreck your play.

About the ship I agree that kdf would need some better punching ships than it has now.That is one of the reasons that most of PVP is done in lockboxes in this moment.(Best "raptor" =fleet defiant ,Best c-store sci =vesta ,Best c-store hec =armitage)
KDF battlecruiser's are nice and are considered better than federation counterpart.(I don't know,I didn't use them)
Bops are nice but you have to use a hit and run tactic with them and I personaly dislike this strategy.The veteran destroyer is a good ship but you have to pay a LTS for flying it.
Originally Posted by zipagat :
"There already is a Borg faction, its called the Federation. They assimilate everyone else's technology and remove any biological or technical distinctiveness and add it to their own."

Last edited by dova25; 03-27-2013 at 01:12 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,764
# 10
03-27-2013, 01:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dova25 View Post
Fleet defiant's decloaking alfa and /or the new kumari shield stripping overload hit are in my opinion the the best shield punchers in this moment.

Best value Cheese :except aceton's ( i don't have them btw) and leech,all other consoles are available to federation at a much lower price.On kdf side you have to buy a c-store ship for a console ,as fed you can buy it from exchange very cheap.

Best power drain :here it is again the comparison between siphon drones and danubes.Which are worse ? Hard to tell.Both will stop you and wreck your play.

About the ship I agree that kdf would need some better punching ships than it has now.That is one of the reasons that most of PVP is done in lockboxes in this moment.(Best "raptor" =fleet defiant ,Best c-store sci =vesta ,Best c-store hec =armitage)
KDF battlecruiser's are nice and are considered better than federation counterpart.(I don't know,I didn't use them)
Bops are nice but you have to use a hit and run tactic with them and I personaly dislike this strategy.The veteran destroyer is a good ship but you have to pay a LTS for flying it.
Vet destroyer: I have an LTS (yeah, I got stupid...) and I have one on one toon-and it sits in drydock with the Qin raptor one of my other toons tried out, and the Vor'cha my Engie levelled from 40 to 50 in.

Comparing a Vor'cha to a Fed Assault Cruiser: yep, better turn rate, dual heavy cannons..
not enough tac slots to make use of them, and crippled compared to the Assault Cruiser in terms of survivability, and crippled vs. a FedScort in terms of manueverability and ability to apply damage in a directed fashion.

That said, it's nice in PvE, but when I determined that PvE was getting dull, I went and ground the Dil. and bought me a Hegh'ta instead-because it has turn-rate and I can use funny tactics with it, whereas the Vor'cha was basically just a cube/probe killer and Kang or Portal guard.
"when you're out of Birds of Prey, you're out of ships."
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