Lt. Commander
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 191
# 1 No reason work with your team.
04-26-2013, 06:50 PM
For the purposes of this post, I did not want to post right away, as I was rather angry. I went into a elite stf space Khitomer vortex. Not to difficult just takes some common sense. Well it started out good. Then of course we had two escorts, that of course, decided lets pull argo and blow up everything in sight. Of course we ended up spawning three elite cubes. Team got wiped. Next the one escort decides lets attack the gate, ignore the probes, while its still shielded. Result took a heck of allot longer then it should have to bring the gate down. It got so bad that seven probes got through. Its not like this stf is the elite hive in space.

My point with the reputation these guys can wipe over and over again, and if they don't get the bonus done no biggie to them. All they have to do is grind the rep. SO there is no reason to do it right. I had the same problem during the easiest elite stf of them all infected. After taking down the shield gen for the gate, again a escort decided whats waste time blasting away at the gate. People have made posts on why rep has made things worse for stfs, and why the old way was better. They have said things way better then I could ever hope to. If there is no point to try, then your going to have more poor players drag down a team, and waste there time on something that could be done a heck of allot easier. I know accidents do happen, and I know the difference between someone making an oops and screwing over the team on purpose.

Cryptic your about to launch legacy of the Romulans. I know what your intent was for the reputation, what I just described is one porblem, that the reputation has created. Not to mention very few people ever do the ground. From what I am seeing in space, I dont think I would dare try to do the ground stfs. The ground stfs are a pain in the but, like all ground combat. The game needs a hard point somewhere. Sweeping half the end game content under the rug by using rep does not help maters. It certainly is not telling players hey get with the program learn the stfs. I did not do elites my first times out, I wanted to learn the stfs first, before heading onto elite. Like I said there is no reason for these bad players to care, while they drag everyone else down hill.

Yes I have posted before with my issues on the rep, this to me at least is a new experience, that was rare, and is now common.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 321
# 2
04-27-2013, 09:04 AM
I could write a lengthly diatribe on the problems with PvE in this game currently, and so could a lot of people, and there are a lot of little reasons that contribute to poor players not really being punished. So I'll try to keep this short.

I don't think it's a case that players aren't trying, and I would think very few are deliberately screwing runs, and those that are would be very blatant about it. I think it's a case that because of the power creep, and the fact that long-term players have done the STFs loads of times (because they're designed that way) good players are way above the level of ability and experience needed to do STFs. This means that they can cover the errors of bad players, and usually will because they won't want to fail the STF.

This means that there a lot of poor players out there who are bailed out by better players (most of whom probably can't be arsed telling them what they're doing wrong) in quite a lot of the STFs they do, and they don't realise they're making mistakes. So they never improve and soon reach a point where they think they're good because of all the times they've been carried. So when someone says "Hey bro, can I explain the tactics of this to you?" they come out with "STFU n00b, I has Super Elite Adapted MACO Mk XIIIIIIIIIIIII gear" or something along those lines.

Throw in the fact that there's basically no real death penalty and the DPS-dominant PvE design rewards zerging and we have the problem you've described above.


And Cryptic will probably never redesign the rep system, or STFs, or end-level PvE, in a way that bad players can't be carried and will have to improve and learn tactics if they want any rewards. Because if they do a tonne of people will come onto the forums complaining that STFs can't be PuGged anymore and about how they can't deal with fleets or grouping channels or any other way to create organised groups, but still want to do group content in an MMO.

At some stage they might rebalance the Borg's stats to account for the more powerful equipment available, but that will just make the STFs about gear rather than player ability.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 191
# 3
04-27-2013, 12:19 PM
I understand what your saying. Its just I did the stfs before rep launched and after. I never ran into this much well stupidness. I mean who the hell is going to spawn three cubes. I dont care what ship your running, your going to run into problems. I guess you could call this a rant post, but I felt it was something to point out. Even when we got to the warbird part again the escorts were right up top of her ship and she kept cloaking, I said stay 6m out, and the one guy responds well shes going to cloak anyways. Its like are you joking. Of course this ship will cloak anyways but not nearly has often if you stay 6m out. I just honestly never seen space this bad, considering space is one of the easy parts of the game. Oh well.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,140
# 4
04-27-2013, 05:41 PM
It is indeed frustrating to PUG an ESTF some days. Well, lately, most days. I have seen people do things which are silly, pointless and downright abysmally ignorant.

However, as one those 'Let's pull aggro and blast everything in sight!' TAC Captains, I'd like to present an alternate viewpoint.

Scene: Khitomer Elite PUG.
Cast: An MU Vo'Quv w/Advanced Slavers (An odd choice but it worked well enough)
An Amby Refit Beamboat(Phasers) with shields which seemed impenetrable
An Oddy SkittlesBoat
A Vesta Beamboat which may have achieved 1K DPS once or twice.
Myself - A TAC in an MU Qin Raptor which I have spent entirely too much time, Dilithium and EC on.
Trying to max out Alpha Strike damage as well as maneuverability in.

So, Carrier Guy and Amby Pilot get a good jump on the Tac Cube and proceed to rip the shields clean off two sides at once. I am right behind them, adding to the mayhem where I can. The Oddy and the Vesta sashay up just as Amby Pilot gets the killshot on the Cube. "Great" I says to myself. "A three man team handicapped by a pair of palookas to take on Donatra. Oh yeah, this is gonna end well."

Since my Qin can turn on a dime but is still somewhat squishy, I typed into Chat that I was volunteering for Probe Duty. I can hit pretty hard when I Alpha Strike but my followup attack is not as good as I like. After an Alpha Strike, I can make faces at a Cube to draw its attention, but this always earns me a trip to Respawnville about a nanosecond later. Amby Pilot and Carrier Guy both acknowledged this and typed in they were going left and right respectively. The Palooka Brothers were typically silent.

So I am watching Carrier Guy tear up a gen set and a transformer. It was beautiful. He had an impeccable sense of timing and was doing well. Amby Pilot was not doing as well but the difference in talent level was small enough you had to really look for it to see it. Then, it happened. Both of them got the InvisTorp OneShot. Nearly at the same time. The Oddy Steerer(Nope, I did not mispronounce it) is close to Amby Pilot. Amby Pilot breaks off and ducks behind the Oddy to heal. The Oddy begins the Disco Light show he calls, "Pew-pew-pewing Da Bad Guys" and actually does enough damage long enough for Amby Pilot to heal up and return to the fight. Whew! That was close.

Meanwhile, Carrier Guy is in a world of hurt. And the Cube is tracking him. I finish off a wave of Probes and I am genuinely torn. Do I stay on station and save the Optional? Do I move off station and risk losing a Probe to keep Carrier Guy in the fight? Can I pull enough Aggro on the Cube to get it off Carrier Guy long enough for him to heal and return to the battle? And where the heck did that Vesta get off to?

I chose to go off station to try and pull the Cube off of Carrier Guy. He was close enough and my Qin is fast enough, I should be able to get back just in time to intercept a Probe before it enters the Vortex. Granted, It will be about 0.5km from the Vortex when I kill it, but I only need just a tiny bit of luck. Besides I've done this before and it worked out fine. So I aggro the Cube and knock it down by half. Carrier Guy got all healed up and back in the fight. All in all, a good day's work for a TAC in an Escort, IMHO.

To conclude: None of the Probes got through while I was away. And we got the Optional after all. More due to luck than design, but some days it is better to be lucky than good.
The only 'must have' gear for any ship is a competent Captain.
Turkina Keshik of the Jade Falcons
HAIL (Disco) BA'AL!
Captain
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 3,015
# 5
04-27-2013, 08:30 PM
this is down to trinity trolls slurring out "buth yhurr duth thaaaannnkkththth"

when i spawn a cube in vortex, i kill it. no excuse for leaving it to the ship that cant dps half as well.
as it turns out, an intrepid would lose a fight with a connie.
and thats canon.
! the power of plot compels you.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 856
# 6
04-30-2013, 04:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thunderfoot006 View Post
It is indeed frustrating to PUG an ESTF some days. Well, lately, most days. I have seen people do things which are silly, pointless and downright abysmally ignorant.

However, as one those 'Let's pull aggro and blast everything in sight!' TAC Captains, I'd like to present an alternate viewpoint.

Scene: Khitomer Elite PUG.
Cast: An MU Vo'Quv w/Advanced Slavers (An odd choice but it worked well enough)
An Amby Refit Beamboat(Phasers) with shields which seemed impenetrable
An Oddy SkittlesBoat
A Vesta Beamboat which may have achieved 1K DPS once or twice.
Myself - A TAC in an MU Qin Raptor which I have spent entirely too much time, Dilithium and EC on.
Trying to max out Alpha Strike damage as well as maneuverability in.

So, Carrier Guy and Amby Pilot get a good jump on the Tac Cube and proceed to rip the shields clean off two sides at once. I am right behind them, adding to the mayhem where I can. The Oddy and the Vesta sashay up just as Amby Pilot gets the killshot on the Cube. "Great" I says to myself. "A three man team handicapped by a pair of palookas to take on Donatra. Oh yeah, this is gonna end well."

Since my Qin can turn on a dime but is still somewhat squishy, I typed into Chat that I was volunteering for Probe Duty. I can hit pretty hard when I Alpha Strike but my followup attack is not as good as I like. After an Alpha Strike, I can make faces at a Cube to draw its attention, but this always earns me a trip to Respawnville about a nanosecond later. Amby Pilot and Carrier Guy both acknowledged this and typed in they were going left and right respectively. The Palooka Brothers were typically silent.

So I am watching Carrier Guy tear up a gen set and a transformer. It was beautiful. He had an impeccable sense of timing and was doing well. Amby Pilot was not doing as well but the difference in talent level was small enough you had to really look for it to see it. Then, it happened. Both of them got the InvisTorp OneShot. Nearly at the same time. The Oddy Steerer(Nope, I did not mispronounce it) is close to Amby Pilot. Amby Pilot breaks off and ducks behind the Oddy to heal. The Oddy begins the Disco Light show he calls, "Pew-pew-pewing Da Bad Guys" and actually does enough damage long enough for Amby Pilot to heal up and return to the fight. Whew! That was close.

Meanwhile, Carrier Guy is in a world of hurt. And the Cube is tracking him. I finish off a wave of Probes and I am genuinely torn. Do I stay on station and save the Optional? Do I move off station and risk losing a Probe to keep Carrier Guy in the fight? Can I pull enough Aggro on the Cube to get it off Carrier Guy long enough for him to heal and return to the battle? And where the heck did that Vesta get off to?

I chose to go off station to try and pull the Cube off of Carrier Guy. He was close enough and my Qin is fast enough, I should be able to get back just in time to intercept a Probe before it enters the Vortex. Granted, It will be about 0.5km from the Vortex when I kill it, but I only need just a tiny bit of luck. Besides I've done this before and it worked out fine. So I aggro the Cube and knock it down by half. Carrier Guy got all healed up and back in the fight. All in all, a good day's work for a TAC in an Escort, IMHO.

To conclude: None of the Probes got through while I was away. And we got the Optional after all. More due to luck than design, but some days it is better to be lucky than good.
You sir had me smiling the entire time I read this. You are going to be a great story teller when you get old, sitting in a rocking chair and babbling on.
"If you didn't want to get yelled at by a bunch of crazy nerds you shouldn't have posted on the forums"
"Bacon tastes so much better marinated in vegan tears"
Better dead then Fed!
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,140
# 7
05-01-2013, 08:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by abaddon653 View Post
You sir had me smiling the entire time I read this. You are going to be a great story teller when you get old, sitting in a rocking chair and babbling on.
Already old (51). Already sitting in the rocking chair. And apparently already babbling on incessantly(see below). Thank you for the flowers, though lol.

Back on point. Another thread in these forums spoke of watching lvl 50 players getting blown out of the stars on the Defera Invasion mission while a team of well coordinated lvl 40 players sailed right thru and accomplished all assigned objectives. Hmmm...

This game is very gear centric at times. To the point where people assume if they have the right gear, they can accomplish anything. This seems to be rather muddied thinking. Prior to the Rep system, I decided what with Omega, MACO and KHG gear being so difficult to get at the time, I was not going to bother with it. Playing the Rep system for all it is worth and still not really interested in the above. I do have a lot of purple and Blue MK XII on my ships and Away Teams but nothing that is special. I have listened to generous advice from players more experienced than I and tried out their suggestions with the gear they prefer. Where it worked I kept it. Where I was less than enthused about the results, I recycled it. I have spent far too much EC and Dilithium trying out things which did not always work out for the best.

Along with ignoring the gear which everyone else seems so very hawt for, I have spent a lot of time observing how others play and have tried to work out a set of techniques which enable my modestly equipped toons to survive an ESTF as well as contribute to the success of the team. Mostly PUG but a few premade and some on the Chat channels. I have come to the following conclusions.

- Too many players spend just enough time playing the storyline to get to Lvl 50 and then expect to be expert in things they haven't spent enough time learning how to use against lower lvl opponents.

- A lot of people try to carry the team to achieve the Optional in any STF. This is their sole goal and when the team fails the Optional, the STF is "ruined" and further, "It's all THEIR fault! Waaaahhh!" Let the Optional remain just that - Optional. If we get it, great! If not we can always try again in about an hour or so.

- A lot of people simply mount the biggest weapons they can and then charge headlong straight into the mouth of the enemy's cannons. When this does not work, surprise, they go back and get bigger weapons.

- There is a very strong 'flavor of the week' element all throughout STO. This encourages people to try different ships and weapons, but does not encourage them to spend enough time with each to really understand their strengths and weaknesses.

- The only way to get really good with any ship or weapon type is to spend nearly all your time with it. I have been playing for just over one year now and I have one or two ships for each of my toons which are almost the only ones I fly with them. The Next Big Thing is really nice to have and a few of my ships are C-Store purchases. However, I find myself enjoying the game the most with the ships I fly the most.

I fully realize some of the ideas expressed above are heresy and blasphemy of the very highest order. There will be some who will call out the mob to attempt to take my head. Oh well. All I can say is been there, done that, got the Tee shirt. Still here. Still playing.
The only 'must have' gear for any ship is a competent Captain.
Turkina Keshik of the Jade Falcons
HAIL (Disco) BA'AL!
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 126
# 8
05-02-2013, 09:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thunderfoot006 View Post
It is indeed frustrating to PUG an ESTF some days. Well, lately, most days. I have seen people do things which are silly, pointless and downright abysmally ignorant.

...

To conclude: None of the Probes got through while I was away. And we got the Optional after all. More due to luck than design, but some days it is better to be lucky than good.
So it was a good experience for you after all. You were successful and you left with the feeling that you are a good player and did well.

Bad players keep the ESTFs exciting. Imagine how boring it were if everyone knew and followed the tactics perfectly. You would just repeat the same thing over and over again. There would not be a need for good players who are able to adapt to the situation. So PUGs are not all bad.

But i agree that it sometimes feels unfair that someone who obviously plays badly and does not care gets the same achievements as someone who practices a lot and tries to build a good ship.

I do not think that Cryptic is going to change anything though. If a player notices that he sucks he may buy a new ship. If he still sucks he will buy another one and some expensive gear. By the time he realizes that lack of skill cannot be mitigated by the best gear he has spent enough money to be profitable.

And there are more mediocre players than good players. So by keeping the game easy enough they can attract more players and thus make more profit. And this might even benefit the good players.

There have always been bad players in STFs obviously. But before the introduction of the rep system some people just didnt bother with STFs if they were too hard for them. Now there is an unfinished project in one of the main windows of the game and everyone will want to complete the reputation sometime. This may have been one reason for a new wave of bad players in STFs. And because they get their marks faster they go straight to the elites of course.

Last edited by nithanath; 05-02-2013 at 09:39 AM.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,499
# 9
05-01-2013, 12:33 PM
All of the things being blamed on the rep system in this thread happened under the old system, too. The "Post your worst STF experience" thread down in the PVE forum was going strong eight months before the rep system was a thing with all the same things.

Heck, months before the rep system, even before starbases, there was an actual fleet whose only reason to exist was to enter and screw up STFs by destroying nodes on the right, forcing Donatra to cloak over and over, playing tractor repulsor basketball with probes and the vortex - they got quite creative in some of their methods.

Last edited by hevach; 05-01-2013 at 12:36 PM.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 186
# 10
04-30-2013, 03:32 PM
It's the same for every multiplayer game. The devs can fix the game, but not the players. You say there's no reason to cooperate? I beg to differ. A coordinated team will get more kills, kill faster, and otherwise perform better. The rewards for teamwork are baked into the gameplay. Your trouble isn't that teamwork isn't rewarded, but that you're teamed with bad, inconsiderate players. The only solution is to bring premades.
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