Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 797
Okay, since the last topic got locked because it was out of date (I don't understand the american date system!), here's a repost because I couldn't find a more current topic to re-iterate my concerns.


I'm one of the Leaders of a relatively small Fleet.

For background, we have a membership list of around 60 members, but over time, the number of active members has dwindled to around 5 or so.

And of those 5, the two active contributors are me and another leader.

We've been making quite nice progress so far, we've gotten all 3 Starbase fields to T3 and the Embassy Fields to T2.

But then the fun of the ride ended as soon as I looked at the individual cost of the upgrades.

I don't remember what it costs to upgrade a Starbase to T3, but I did memorize what it takes to upgrade an Embassy to T2.

10500 Fleet Marks and 1000000 Dilithium.

The first one can be done given time, but the second one, well, I have doubts we'll ever be able to collect that much Dilithium!


Now, to be clear, I like my fleet, because it feels more personal that I know everyone who is in it, instead of having a large number of people who are just names on a list.

Also, for better or worse, I commit to a Fleet, out of loyalty and responsibility to the members.

So, I'm not going to abandon it no matter what.


But now I feel like I'm being punished for my commitment to these ideals.


And I'm also painfully aware that recruitment is tougher now, because everyone wants the T5 fleets for the fleet ships and the Elite Gear.


I'm thinking the system needs to be rebalanced a heck of a lot to level the playing field, so to speak.

Basing it on members wouldn't be a good mechanic, because technically we're a fleet of 60+members.

And no, I don't kick out inactives, because that's what appeals to our members, come and go as you please, you'll always have a place with us, even if you are absent for a long time.

Basing it on active contributions would be a better method, having the system scan the contributors per month and saying, only 3 people contributed this month, so they qualify for small fleet status.

And have it scale to the number of contributors, the less there are, the cheaper the costs.


And yes, I am aware that the large fleets (and members of said fleets) are actively roadblocking this proposal.

I'm thinking they're just being egotistical, because they don't want small fleets to achieve T5.

And there's possibly a selfish angle there, they want to dissolve the small fleets so they can absorb their members.
Career Officer
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 57
# 2
05-13-2013, 03:37 PM
You have some wonky assumptions about larger fleets.

For one, their rosters tend to be quite full so absorbing a smaller fleet isn't really an option. Nevermind the fact that they're far more selective on who they admit and usually have a limited contribution level before anyone even becomes a full member and/or has access to the fleet stores. A few big fleets spam for recruiting, but most do not. Quality over quantity.

Second, large fleets have no reason to block smaller fleet progression. This was a common misconception in EQ as well and the truth of the matter was, the big guilds in EQ never even socialized or otherwise thought of the smaller guilds because their progression was so far ahead and they were in places the others had no access to, that it was a non factor. Large fleets tend to do fleet actions and ESTF without pugging, and many have general chat disabled. Most have no idea you even exist, even if you spam the heck out of ESD.

Third, the progression is what it is. They made T3 relatively accessable even to small fleets which opens the door to the majority of content that Starbases have to offer. The fact that you only have 2-3 people actually contributing is more of a result of poor recruiting practices than actually being a problem with the system. A small fleet isn't 2-3 contributors, otherwise what's the point of joining a small fleet if you can do the same with a bunch of alts?

Lastly, Cryptic likely views "small fleets" as groups of 20-80 people or so who are mostly active and mostly contributing. Smaller ones fall off the grid because the system wasn't designed with that in mind. They want people to form into larger groups and work towards a common goal, rather than cluster into small alt armies for bank space and whatnot.

My advice to you is to start recruiting and looking for quality members. The likelyhood of the system being altered down to the point of where a half dozen people can attain T4+ status is likely not going to happen because Cryptic doesn't want alt armies exploiting the system.

They've already made some adjustments to smooth things out. Be happy you'll never have to go through the Heart of Targ nightmare.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 254
# 3
05-13-2013, 04:46 PM
My fleet that I am in isn't a large fleet either (Around maybe 20 active players on a good night). However, we are now working on T4 Starbase and finishing up T2 on the Embassy. While I agree the resource dumps are a bit much (Ironically used to be worse than it is now), it just depends on how bad you want the reward of doing it. A lot of our guys contribute because they really want what it has to offer, we also recruit people openly and have a probie period of a month with a contribution requirement to request stuff from our stores as a member (Kind of a quality control period).

Fact is, even as a small fleet you have to run it as if you're a larger fleet to attract more quality recruits. Presenting yourself as a quality fleet beyond just being chill to hang out with. Just comes down to appealing to people beyond just being a laidback fleet, since most of the fleets in STO claim they are laidback. That way you can still pull in people to help get your fleet rolling on a more progressive basis while at the same time giving them a reason to love being apart of your fleet.

Last edited by mcconna; 05-13-2013 at 04:49 PM.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 217
# 4
05-14-2013, 01:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shredder75 View Post
You have some wonky assumptions about larger fleets.

For one, their rosters tend to be quite full so absorbing a smaller fleet isn't really an option. Nevermind the fact that they're far more selective on who they admit and usually have a limited contribution level before anyone even becomes a full member and/or has access to the fleet stores. A few big fleets spam for recruiting, but most do not. Quality over quantity.

Second, large fleets have no reason to block smaller fleet progression. This was a common misconception in EQ as well and the truth of the matter was, the big guilds in EQ never even socialized or otherwise thought of the smaller guilds because their progression was so far ahead and they were in places the others had no access to, that it was a non factor. Large fleets tend to do fleet actions and ESTF without pugging, and many have general chat disabled. Most have no idea you even exist, even if you spam the heck out of ESD.

Third, the progression is what it is. They made T3 relatively accessable even to small fleets which opens the door to the majority of content that Starbases have to offer. The fact that you only have 2-3 people actually contributing is more of a result of poor recruiting practices than actually being a problem with the system. A small fleet isn't 2-3 contributors, otherwise what's the point of joining a small fleet if you can do the same with a bunch of alts?

Lastly, Cryptic likely views "small fleets" as groups of 20-80 people or so who are mostly active and mostly contributing. Smaller ones fall off the grid because the system wasn't designed with that in mind. They want people to form into larger groups and work towards a common goal, rather than cluster into small alt armies for bank space and whatnot.

My advice to you is to start recruiting and looking for quality members. The likelyhood of the system being altered down to the point of where a half dozen people can attain T4+ status is likely not going to happen because Cryptic doesn't want alt armies exploiting the system.
6 people can get to tier 4.
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Bone1970 don't believe in a no-win senario, Kirk's protege. Fed Tac.
Bone Trader don't belief in a no-win senario, Kirk's protege. Fed Tac.
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Commander
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 284
# 5
05-14-2013, 02:10 PM
This thread made me re-post my recruiting .. message.. lol

Yeah I tried to stay extra teeny for awhile.. but I figured I would never be able to spend all the resources of the fleet with just 2 of us.. yup only had me and this other guy for awhile

He vanished a few months back.. ( worried yes, but cannot get in touch with him ), so I had to take on the brunt of the fleet stuff.. got a few people in during the past few weeks.. and it couldn't have worked out better.

One of my new guys is a superstar.. already rank 3.. having contributed like 700k in the first 2 weeks. Very happy I was able to snatch him up. Showed my appreciation by making him rank 3, and unlimited access to 1 bank slot to do with what he pleases.

Im super easy going, and that just did not seems to fit in with the few large fleets ive joined and left in my time. They would ignore you unless you were buddies with one of the higher ups.. even if you were #5 on the damn contributions list for 2 months! .. I climbed from #300+ to #5 (around 1.5mil).. and still did not get access to anything! Damn egos

Yeah yeah not saying they are allll like thatttt.. but keep your shinies.. I will not beg for crop i already should have earned!


Oh yeah.. so keep hope alive!!!.. try to recruit decent people, and just keep an eye on them for a week or two to make sure they arent crazy..

it isnt an easy road to T5 for us little guys.. but with hard work and $$$ ( lol ) we will make it... and hopefully we will have so many goodies by then.. we will be glad that we didnt waste dilithium on what they have now!
Career Officer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 424
# 6
05-19-2013, 07:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shredder75 View Post
Second, large fleets have no reason to block smaller fleet progression. This was a common misconception in EQ as well and the truth of the matter was, the big guilds in EQ never even socialized or otherwise thought of the smaller guilds because their progression was so far ahead and they were in places the others had no access to, that it was a non factor. Large fleets tend to do fleet actions and ESTF without pugging, and many have general chat disabled. Most have no idea you even exist, even if you spam the heck out of ESD.
Actually incorrect. You may have experienced it, but I have seen instances where a putzy monk would train a guild that was still trying to progress in order to wipe them, and then take the encounter.

This is still largely irrelevant in the current environment as there aren't any contested bosses out there. In general on the topic though, the system is built primarily around the 20-person fleet as the baseline. Over that, the time-gates keep it from progressing faster than Cryptic would like. Below 20 tends to require more dedication and attention to advance the fleet explicitly. Honestly, just keep progressing like you want. Definitely be sure to build up a pool of provisions and see about sneaking into or obtaining access to a higher level fleet's base. The only thing that's actually locked to the Fleet are the ships themselves.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 103
# 7
05-20-2013, 05:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shredder75 View Post
You have some wonky assumptions about larger fleets.

For one, their rosters tend to be quite full so absorbing a smaller fleet isn't really an option. Nevermind the fact that they're far more selective on who they admit and usually have a limited contribution level before anyone even becomes a full member and/or has access to the fleet stores. A few big fleets spam for recruiting, but most do not. Quality over quantity.

Second, large fleets have no reason to block smaller fleet progression. This was a common misconception in EQ as well and the truth of the matter was, the big guilds in EQ never even socialized or otherwise thought of the smaller guilds because their progression was so far ahead and they were in places the others had no access to, that it was a non factor. Large fleets tend to do fleet actions and ESTF without pugging, and many have general chat disabled. Most have no idea you even exist, even if you spam the heck out of ESD.

Third, the progression is what it is. They made T3 relatively accessable even to small fleets which opens the door to the majority of content that Starbases have to offer. The fact that you only have 2-3 people actually contributing is more of a result of poor recruiting practices than actually being a problem with the system. A small fleet isn't 2-3 contributors, otherwise what's the point of joining a small fleet if you can do the same with a bunch of alts?

Lastly, Cryptic likely views "small fleets" as groups of 20-80 people or so who are mostly active and mostly contributing. Smaller ones fall off the grid because the system wasn't designed with that in mind. They want people to form into larger groups and work towards a common goal, rather than cluster into small alt armies for bank space and whatnot.

My advice to you is to start recruiting and looking for quality members. The likelyhood of the system being altered down to the point of where a half dozen people can attain T4+ status is likely not going to happen because Cryptic doesn't want alt armies exploiting the system.

They've already made some adjustments to smooth things out. Be happy you'll never have to go through the Heart of Targ nightmare.
I second that and Im sure I dont meed to remind folks of the Dosi Rotgut and Romulan Ale.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,967
# 8
05-13-2013, 09:35 PM
Cryptic made the fleet project system to kill off small and 1-man fleets, so what is your concern? Just earn yourself a huge pile of fleet credits in the small fleet since there's no competition in filling queues, then bail and join a big fleet where you can buy your tier 5 ship and Elite weapons and etc. Sounds like the best of both worlds to me!

Our queues fill up so fast there are sometimes many days between when I have a chance to contribute some marks, doffs or etc.
Sometimes I think I play STO just to have stuff to rant about on the forums!


Last edited by dracounguis; 05-13-2013 at 09:38 PM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 797
Since you somehow managed to miss it, I'll type it again:

Quote:
Now, to be clear, I like my fleet, because it feels more personal that I know everyone who is in it, instead of having a large number of people who are just names on a list.

Also, for better or worse, I commit to a Fleet, out of loyalty and responsibility to the members.

So, I'm not going to abandon it no matter what.
And really, I feel it would be inappropriate to leave just because things are getting tough.
What kind of message does it send when the Fleet Founder bails on his own fleet?

Not to mention the fact that it would alienate my current Fleetmates, who are sticking with the Fleet in this difficult time.

That's a high price to pay, too high in my opinion.

Last edited by tilarta; 05-13-2013 at 11:00 PM.
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 41
# 10
05-13-2013, 11:28 PM
Well, to be blunt, if you recruited a bunch of numbskulls who have contributed little to nothing to the fleet projects, that's more a problem with people being selfish jerks as opposed to any flaw in the system. The system, for better or for worse, "works". Better for some than for others, of course, but the fact remains.

The best thing you can do is, if you have fleetless friends, to recruit them; or if you have friends in other fleets, ask them to make alts for yours. Beyond that, all I can say is KBO.
Admiral Underwood - General D'Gehn - Admiral Ketiron
Real Join Date: October 2010
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