Career Officer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 92
# 1 Catch 22
06-26-2013, 05:10 PM
Warning: wall of text rant (I'v been holding this in for awhile)

When the game launched I was scared of the pvp queues. Bad men in evil ships would take me out back and do horrible things to me. My only previous mmo experience was city of heroes and I sure as hell didn't pvp in that game. I didn't queue for about a year and a half because I was so vastly outmatched. I really didn't have a handle on what was affected. I was overwhelmed by the options presented to me. The fact you can basically train boffs with any skill at that level was too much for my simple mind to comprehend. But finally fed side grew tiring and I made a kdf. I wanted to RP the part of a pirate a bit (I was a nausicaan) so I started hanging out in kerrat. I started making friends with some of the most successful ships I saw every night. I would ask them questions about their builds. Then I bought a garumba. As I saw it, if I wanted to have the output I was looking for that was something I would have to buy. Now my life had purpose. That ship single-handedly brought me back into the game after about a year of basically ignoring it. It is one of the sexist ships in the game and I love it. But when ever I saw a ship with higher numbers than me at the end of the match I PMed them asking for advice. After making some good friends I finally joined a fleet, and I'v been happily with them ever since. We aren't the best, or the most well known, but they are some smart guys who I'm happy to call my friends. I have had such an amazing time with this game because of pvp.


The number of strictly pve players vastly outnumbers the number of pvp interested folk. Just look at the queues. You can see the numbers. Of course we have all read the threads about why this is so I wont waste your time laying them all out here again. I just look around at other successful mmo/moba type games, or any popular e-sports in general and its all pvp based. People do play starcraft for the single player, but come-on....you didn't by it for the campaign did you? Ya...diablo 3 is really fun single player My point is that if STO wishes to grow it should start with the rabid pvp fans. If they could just balance the game right and give us possibly some form of ranking system so matches could be more evenly matched and more fun maybe they would make more money off of the expanding base of players. IDK...call me crazy, but ignoring the pvp community to cater to the whims of pve'rs will hasen the demise of my beloved game. If you look at the numbers and say: we should ignore pvp because no one does it, you shouldn't be surprised to see dwindling sales because you are ignoring the demographic who have proven (as evidence in other games) that they will pay your bills.

And let me be clear: I FREAKING LOVE THIS GAME.

I have fantasized about being a captain of a starfleet vessel since I was very young. My playset in the backyard growing up was my bridge of the enterprise. There are some REALLY talented writers coming up with some of the story lines. I was blown away at launch by how every 10 levels felt like a season consisting of different episodes. They took me on a tour of a universe I was familiar with. Everytime I went over the neutral zone my butthole tightened and I was freaking out because years of watching star trek had conditioned me to NEVER GO OVER LINE. All the little nods and winks to past episodes were so brilliantly handled. and while I am dismayed that this story tramples ALL OVER the far superior book universe (caeliars anyone?) I still found it utterly engrossing. I got goosebumps playing the episode "temporal ambassador" I had yesterdays enterprise on vhs and watched that **** like every day. Seriously, I am addicted to this game because it basically lets me spend my free time pretending I'm a captain. I'm too much of a nerd to pass this up.

HOWEVER....I have fallen asleep grinding stfs to get all the gear I need for pvp. I can sit there and just mindlessly drone away at targets. Pvp is the only fun and contently interesting part of this game. It changes DAILY and is always challenging me to be better. The PVE is just straight up boring to me now. I know I'm just venting at this point but I guess I need to shout at the wall to get this all out. I have so many good things to say about the game but it still looks like utter CRAP 3 years in. When I installed guild wars 2 I just sat there and stared at the screen I had forgotten how good games could look. Why do doors have to have a height clearance of 20' in this game??!?

This game will continue to stagnate if it continues to ignore a demographic of money spending pvp interested gamers. If cryptic wants Riot LoL money they need to fix the only last interesting part of the game.

Ah...but how do you do this? More game types? Balancing? Less cheese? idk I personally dont use ams, but I dont fault someone who does. Its just something you have to be prepared for, and if you're not you will prolly get screwed. Energy drain builds? Some of my favorite to run. If the goal is to kill someone and you do it really well...I'm not mad. Sure it sucks and nobody likes losing, but thats the nature of pvp. adapt or die. If you can pull of insane numbers no one else can pull off you should be proud of your accomplishment, of course exploits is another matter haha. Unfortunately due to the broken nature of many of the things in this game exploits are something we have to contend with and this will turn off the paying pvp demographic I'm talking about. I'm sure the guys at cryptic are a bit burnt out at this point. To still be coming up with quality product like this has to be hard (I use the term quality loosely). And if any of them by chance get through this wall of text, honestly from the bottom of my heart: thank you for this game. But please...stop doing everything in your power to turn me off from this game! I'm starting to question wither spending money in the star trek universe is worth putting up with some of the broken stuff that is supposed to pass as "working as intended" Its not more powerful and insane ships and lock boxes that will bring people back, its a fun balanced game that is accessible and doesn't **** your face when you queue for pvp for the first time.

TL/DR: nobody queues because its unbalanced, its unbalanced because nobody queues.


god....is my catch 22 metaphor working at all? It makes sense in my head but I can't freaking type it out right haha. oy...you figure it out. you're smart people

Happy hunting!
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 56
# 2
06-27-2013, 01:44 AM
Signed.

/10char.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,136
# 3
06-27-2013, 02:42 AM
NOTE: The following might come off as haughty, but I assure you - I consider myself an average player at best. There are many that will probably say that I'm being too kind to myself, giving myself that much credit that I consider myself average...that I'm far worse than that. They're probably right. It's not meant to be a putdown to the casual player in the least...it's just about accepting things for what they are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by verusisrael View Post
TL/DR: nobody queues because its unbalanced, its unbalanced because nobody queues.
While some people may not queue because of the unbalanced nature of the game, that nobody queues is not the cause of the game being as unbalanced as it is.

This is the most casual, I mean - it's insanely casual - mindbogglingly super casual game that I have ever played. The intended audience for the game...well, to elaborate on that would result in all sorts of pesky messages from mods about how those weren't very nice things to say about fellow humans.

/cough

Some people complain about some games being akin to shooting fish in a barrel. I used to joke that STO was like dropping a grenade in a barrel of fish. The game has gone so far beyond that...to cater to certain players...that it's more akin to ordering a planetary bombardment from a fleet of hundreds of ships to kill a single goldfish in a styrofoam cup.

/cough

When the game's PvE content can be completed easily by the average player (or a group of average players) in nothing more than RA ships and whatever haphazard gear they picked up along the way...

...and the vast majority of the game's playerbase in their shiny Zen/Fleet ships geared out the wahzoo with everything from under every Sun in the Star Trek Universe still complain about the difficulty...

...well, you've lost the vast majority of the playerbase as potential folks to queue up.

These folks are lost. Not going to happen. Even if you were to remove all that stuff and put limits on what could be used in PvP, you're not going to get those folks...it's too hard.

Course now, if you were to remove stuff/limit stuff - you might get the average player. That average player that avoids the queues like the plague as is, because they simply can't compete with the above average player that's using the same stuff.

So that might be a way to get them into the queues.

Of course, doing so might cause you to lose some of the folks in the queues as they realize that they're not quite as skilled as they were...and...their egos simply cannot take that.

While there is a group that plug on through, creating their own rules and playing by them - muddling along - even many of those folks eventually give up, give in, and just walk away from the game.

Cryptic knows this. You can look at the way the game's being developed to see this. You can see what's been mentioned in regard to PvP areas...disabling certain things. Cryptic is weighing their options on how to grow PvP to keep customers and even gain some, knowing that they might lose a few and that the majority couldn't give a rat's...

...but yeah, I'd have to disagree that the game is unbalanced because folks don't queue. The game is unbalanced because of the intended market for the game...simple as that.
Vice Admiral Geist, Klingon Science Officer
V.S.S. Oracle, D'Kyr-class Science Vessel

Last edited by virusdancer; 06-27-2013 at 04:59 AM.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 650
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
This is the most casual, I mean - it's insanely casual - mindbogglingly super casual game that I have ever played. The intended audience for the game...well, to elaborate on that would result in all sorts of pesky messages from mods about how those weren't very nice things to say about fellow humans.

To this point here is a polite example, my 9 year old plays STO and can hold her own in Pve, I don't let her pvp or queue team missions, she isn't quick enough and her build isn't sufficient. How do people feel about the game being built that a 4th grader understands it? On one hand it is a fun thing for me to share with her, on the other it seems that the simplicity would be a turn off.

Now this is not a comparison to other MMOs because the only other things we play are Sims3, Kerbal Space, and Minecraft.

Last edited by milanvorius; 06-27-2013 at 05:34 AM.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 959
# 5
06-27-2013, 05:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by milanvorius View Post
How do people feel about the game being built that a 4th grader understands it?
Hey, if I were 9 years old again I'd be much better at this game.
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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 951
# 6
06-27-2013, 05:37 AM
Catch 22:
Make a ladder system to match players based on skill.

The queue already takes many minutes to launch a game just by matching everyone with everyone.

If it only launched games of similarly skilled players, then it would never launch.

---------------------------

Somehow, if we want to see any progress in PvP, we need to increase the interest and number of players.
----
@DevolvedOne

Last edited by skurf; 06-27-2013 at 05:39 AM.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 650
# 7
06-27-2013, 05:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by naevius View Post
Hey, if I were 9 years old again I'd be much better at this game.
She's a great little wingman, i am very proud.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 959
# 8
06-27-2013, 05:57 AM
To quote Spock: The needs of the money outweigh the needs of the pew. (I think I got that right...)

However, I have a personal belief that, even if PvP players are a minority in an MMO, PvP is still critical to the game. PvP is sort of a sanity check on whether the game 'works' in a meaningful way.

I hope PvP gets a serious overhaul at some point, but I'm not too optimistic, and I suspect we are pretty far down a road of no return.
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Last edited by naevius; 06-27-2013 at 08:29 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 9
06-27-2013, 07:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by verusisrael View Post
If they could just balance the game right and give us possibly some form of ranking system so matches could be more evenly matched and more fun maybe they would make more money off of the expanding base of players.

Yep, good point.


Quote:
Originally Posted by verusisrael View Post
IDK...call me crazy, but ignoring the pvp community to cater to the whims of pve'rs will hasen the demise of my beloved game.
Again, true.

They've painted themselves into a bizarre corner, and the fault lays squarely at their doorstep.

They have taken the MMO [ gear progress > raid/endgame progress > repeat with new tier] progression model and warped it into something that makes no sense.

They sell us new powers and gear or make us grind stores to buy it in, usually more powerful or unbalanced compared to most of what was released before...

...but they do not add new, harder content for that gear progression to feed off of.


If they did, I could actually have a bit more forgiveness for the constant power creep.

Instead this power creep is just poisoning their own well, making already easy-breezy content even easier.

Quote:
Originally Posted by verusisrael View Post
If you look at the numbers and say: we should ignore pvp because no one does it, you shouldn't be surprised to see dwindling sales because you are ignoring the demographic who have proven (as evidence in other games) that they will pay your bills.
That's what they tell themselves.

That's what they tell us.

Those are the words they say.

However their other words say a lot more.

They don't PvP, they don't like PvP and part of me gets the feeling that some of them really don't like PvPers.*

I have no proof of that, other than some off hand comments from interviews, but its still my opinion.



I'm not sure why they continually allow this segment of their market to languish and deteriorate, one that has been proven repeatedly to spend and remain engaged at an intense level.





*I do admit readily that the PvP segment often contains a lot of rancor but at the same time a good portion of that rancor comes from 3 years of stagnation, neglect, "unfun" game mechanics allowed to run rampant and an unrelenting barrage of constant metagame shifts and a degradation of virtual equity.


Last edited by ussultimatum; 06-27-2013 at 07:34 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,136
# 10
06-27-2013, 07:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
...but they do not add new, harder content for that gear progression to feed off of.
That's kind of what led to my thoughts earlier about who the game this game is intended for...

Though I'm not a fan of the "gear check" carrot on a stick progression, there's still a logic there, eh?

Gear A to do Content B, Content B rewards Gear B so you can do Content C, Content C rewards Gear C so you can do Content D, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc...

STO on the other hand, well - we're on what, Gear L and still on Content A? There's been additional Content A added, sure...but no Content B.

Rather than adding Content B, they add Grindsinks. You keep doing Content A, so you can Grind stuff for Grinds ABC. It gets easier and easier to do Content A, so there are Timegates on the Grinds. Even then, certain of the Grinds are still done within a month - wham, bam, hrmmm.

There's the big Grind of a Starbase - but it was somewhat out of reach of many - so introduce Grind K to make it easier for smaller Fleets to do that Grind.

They're still doing Content A over and over and over and over and over though.

But again, they've spoken about S9-S10 being about endgame improvements...including PvP...so it's a case of waiting and seeing, eh?

Meanwhile, Grind R(isa) starts today...
Vice Admiral Geist, Klingon Science Officer
V.S.S. Oracle, D'Kyr-class Science Vessel
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