Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,764
As a whole, I like the Star Trek Online Reputation Systems. I look at the Rep System like leveling my character. Instead of doing activities to gain "Experience Points" until I get enough to go from level 50 to 51, I'm performing activities to gather resources to progress from T0 to T5 in a given Rep. There are even similarities to the rewards: Additional abilities, access to new gear, new missions, etc. It's basically the same thing.

There are some issues with the system. Most really are pet peeves and minor annoyances that can easily be overlooked, but here are the Top Three Problems with the Rep System and how they fortunately can be overcome:

Problem: The Rep System is "Grindy"
I think one of the major difference between increasing your Rank/Level vs. Rep Tiers is with the former the game is set up to take you through a story as you progress from mission-to-mission, whereas for Reps the player is forced to play a relatively limited number of missions repeatedly. Over and over and over.

Solutions:
  • Offer Marks to Vice Admirals from All Missions. There are more story-missions than necessary to make it to VA. This is especially true with Feds, but even KDF and Romulans can get to VA before completing their stories. My Rom Alt got to VA before even getting to Nimbus III, and is only just now fighting the Elachi. I only wish I had time to run the Story missions and still be able to Rep-Level. So! Existing content like Story-missions, PvP, Patrols, Events, Foundry, Explorations, maybe even DOffing, etc... All content available to End Game characters should award End Game resources. I get it, the goal of the Rep System is to keep players visiting every day! I think they'd be more willing to do so if they got to play whatever they wanted. Drop a Multi-Mark box at the end of any given mission and be done (20-40 Marks of any time, amount varies by mission).
  • Make More Rep Missions. Not much explanation required on this one... Make more Omega STFs, Nukara Events, etc. (But really, there is more than enough content in STO. Cryptic just needs to use what they've already got! See previous bullet.)


Problem: Excessive Boring Clicking!
To me the least fun aspect of the Rep "Grind" is visiting vendors, buying the same old hypos, shields, regens, commodities, etc. over and over again... It's better now that ground items let us buy in quantities of 100 (with the frustrating exception of Power Cells, still at 20). But I still have to make too many trips to a vendor, and click too many shops, slide too many sliders, etc. And then once I get the resources, I have to click too many times in the Rep window on Contribute, Sliding the Bar, etc.

Solutions:
  • Increase the Large Power Cell purchase quantity to 100 like the other items (this, at least, needs to be done ASAP).
  • Use Energy Credits. Change Rep System projects to require Energy Credits instead of vendor trash. The idea that there's any Role-Playing/Immersion involved with these projects goes out the window when you realize you're running the exact same two projects over and over and over and over... It's not like DOffing where the Assignments vary enough that you could imagine this stuff happening.
  • Increase storage stacks on all Rep items (commodities, ground devices, etc.) to 999.
  • Increase purchase quantities of all Rep Items to 999.
  • Add a Rep Auto Fill option. I start a project and if my Auto Fill is checked-on it automatically pulls necessary resources from my inventory and starts the project if it's filled. If you don't want this to be an Option, then make it a Button on the upper Rep menu. Start all projects for all reps, click one Autofill button. Assuming you have all the resources available, they get eaten, and all Rep projects start. Having to click Contribute, Slide, Ok 24 times a day for 36 days sucks.



Problem: Rep System is not Alt Friendly
Especially now that we have a third faction, the desire to create Alternate Characters (or simply "alts") has been increased. However, to "finish" each character would require re-running the Omega, Romulan Republic, and Nekura reps all over again, and this gets harder and less appealing with each Alt. This problem will only get worse as more Reps are added to the game.

Solutions:
There are a couple of ways this could be resolved. Some people have suggested making Reps an account-wide unlock (ie completing a Rep on one toon, completes it for all toons), but Cryptic has already given that the kabash, and honestly, I'm not in favor of that. There's too much benefit to having a Tier 5 Rep, that there should be some work involved. That being said, I do suggest any of these mitigating features:
  • Resource Discount: For each character that reaches T5, other characters on the account get a cumulative resource discount for that Rep, perhaps 5%. For example: when our first character gets to T5 in Omega, our other characters get 5% off their Omega project costs (marks, dil, commodities, etc.), when another gets to T5 the rest get 10% off, etc. If you get four T5 Nukara Rep toons, your other alts get 20% off Nukara resources. And so on. The more toons you have, the higher discount rate you get. If necessary, put a cap, but it should be high like 50-80%. I mean to get an 80% discount means you've Rep-leveled 16 characters to T5... You deserve the break.
  • XP Grant: The first time you have a toon reach T5 in a given Rep, each of your other characters get a one time 15,000-32,500 Rep XP windfall. This means if you start a new character they will already be at T2 or T3. An existing character with partial rep, just gets an automatic bump, that many XP. Maybe there's a special project with nominal inputs that could be run to unlock the boon, but it should be no more than the equivalent fees for buying a Tier.
  • Make Rep Gear Account-Bound: This would allow one T5 character to purchase Special Items, Set Pieces, and Mk XII gear, and then share it with other alts on the same account. This is similar to how the Pre-F2P Emblem system worked, one Vice Admiral could gear-out others. If an Alt wants the powers, accolades, mission and costume unlocks, and other rewards of a given Rep, they will still have to complete the Rep.

If Cryptic could implement these changes I think Star Trek Online would improve dramatically! It would go a long way to improving the game's Fun Factor and Quality of Life.

Thanks for visiting/reading. I welcome your feedback.



Oct 18, 2013 Update:
Coming in Season 8 will be a new Reputation Sponsorship feature. It will allow a character with a T5 Rep to run a Project (costs 100 Marks) that creates a Sponsorship Token. Then, using the Account Bank, transfer that Token to an Alt. The Alt can then run a Project that uses the Token to unlock a Double-XP Bonus in that Rep. So instead of only earning 2,800xp per day, your Alt can earn 5,600xp per day, cutting the grind in half!

The Sponsoring T5 character can make as many Tokens as they like for each T5 Rep they have (come Season 8 this will work for all Reps: Omega, Romulan, Nukara, and Dyson). So you can pimp out all your Alts from one Main character.

Obviously being in test, there are details that may change, but this is really great news, and I'm really looking forward to S8 all the more!!

This is on Tribble for Testing now. Details here:
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/sh...d.php?t=886641

You can find/contact me in game as @PatricianVetinari. Original Join Date: Feb 2010.
Need Help with Ship's Power? Check out my Ship Power Guide and Calculator.

Last edited by lordhavelock; 10-18-2013 at 07:24 PM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,874
# 2
08-21-2013, 05:02 PM
I am in complete agreement.

I'll add- I would really like a project in each rep system to convert one type of marks into another. Even if it's an unfavorable rate of exchange, if I could turn 100 Romulan Marks into, say, 75 Omega Marks, that'd be great.

Last edited by futurepastnow; 08-21-2013 at 09:32 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,254
# 3
08-21-2013, 10:13 PM
I agree with every word in the two posts above.
"It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid."
-- Q
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 251
# 4
08-21-2013, 11:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordhavelock View Post
Resource Discount: For each character that reaches T5, other characters on the account get a cumulative resource discount for that Rep, perhaps 5%. For example: when our first character gets to T5 in Omega, our other characters get 5% off their Omega project costs (marks, dil, commodities, etc.), when another gets to T5 the rest get 10% off, etc. If you get four T5 Nukara Rep toons, your other alts get 20% off Nukara resources. And so on. The more toons you have, the higher discount rate you get. If necessary, put a cap, but it should be high like 50-80%. I mean to get an 80% discount means you've Rep-leveled 16 characters to T5... You deserve the break.
I have ten alts and I do reputation simultaneously on all of them. I wouldn't get any discount if they introduced something like that. The alternative: 1,5 year if I'm gonna do the reputation on one character at a time. No thanks.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,764
# 5
08-22-2013, 09:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by futurepastnow View Post
I am in complete agreement...
Quote:
Originally Posted by psycoticvulcan View Post
I agree with every word in the two posts above.
Thanks guys!


Quote:
Originally Posted by futurepastnow View Post
I'll add- I would really like a project in each rep system to convert one type of marks into another...
This wouldn't be a bad idea... If we're gonna have a zillion currencies (you know, like they said they wouldn't when they consolidated them in the past? lol), then having some sort of Mark Converter would be great (which they used to have when we had Badges, Marks, Emblems, and whatnot).


Quote:
Originally Posted by jjumetley View Post
I have ten alts and I do reputation simultaneously on all of them. I wouldn't get any discount if they introduced something like that. The alternative: 1,5 year if I'm gonna do the reputation on one character at a time. No thanks.
I have 14 characters. Seven of them are all done with all three Reps, three are half-done (or better), and the rest have barely begun if at all. I do Reps on 2-4 of them at a time... For various reasons. Mostly because I only have time to run 2-4 characters worth of missions every day, I'm impressed you can run 10 STFs, Nukura, and Romulan missions a day! (Yes, I know you wouldn't have to run all of them every day, and Epohhs makes Romulans easier, but still, that's a lot of missions to do every day!) But there are other reasons... Not all my toons were "ready" to run STFs or weren't fully leveled, etc. Or maybe I just didn't want to play that Alt for some reason at this time.

The idea isn't just for existing toons, but also if you make new ones. So far I've only made one Romulan (Sci), but I've intents to make 2 more (Tac/Eng). If you made a new toon (maybe not a Romulan, but say a fourth faction comes out), you'd have a discount then.

If you don't like that option you're quoting, or it wouldn't help you, I did list two others, and the last one sounds like it might be helpful for your playstyle.

Failing that, have you an alternative suggestion for how to make the Rep System more Alt Friendly?

You can find/contact me in game as @PatricianVetinari. Original Join Date: Feb 2010.
Need Help with Ship's Power? Check out my Ship Power Guide and Calculator.
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 251
# 6
08-22-2013, 10:11 AM
@lordhavelock
I just realized the tone of my post might have been taken as angry or something but I assure you it was not I also appreciate your efforts to come up with a sound solution to the problem.

Quote:
I'm impressed you can run 10 STFs, Nukura, and Romulan missions a day!
It's not like that

First I gather enough marks to finish T3 on all characters. Only then I start with the projects and in the meantime I gather the rest. One day I do grinding on a few characters the next day on a few other toons.

It's just easier for me to buy commodities needed for a certain tier at once for all the characters.

And I never had to do three reputations simultaneously The two latest characters do Nukara like the others but they still have to go through Omega and Romulan reputation.
Captain
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 794
# 7
08-22-2013, 11:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordhavelock View Post
I have 14 characters. Seven of them are all done with all three Reps, three are half-done (or better), and the rest have barely begun if at all. I do Reps on 2-4 of them at a time... For various reasons. Mostly because I only have time to run 2-4 characters worth of missions every day, I'm impressed you can run 10 STFs, Nukura, and Romulan missions a day! (Yes, I know you wouldn't have to run all of them every day, and Epohhs makes Romulans easier, but still, that's a lot of missions to do every day!) But there are other reasons... Not all my toons were "ready" to run STFs or weren't fully leveled, etc. Or maybe I just didn't want to play that Alt for some reason at this time.
I have over 10 alts and I'm working the rep on all of them. I do only 2-4 missions a day. Not 2-4 for each. 2-4 total among all of them (typically just for 1 or 2). I have 7 of them maxed out in Romulan and Omega and everyone is t3 or higher in all the others. I estimate I'll have all of them at t5 somewhere around Feb 2014 and I'm cool with that. It's going much faster than I originally anticipated. Also I always forget that T4 is halfway to the end not 1/3 of the way haha.

I've never yet done 10 STFs in one day. Don't plan to ever do that either. Rep has been out for a while. And unless you PvP the only reason to make it a grind is because of a lack of patience. The gear's not going away. If anything better stuff might come out before you buy something and end up with buyer's remorse.

We already have people in this very thread saying "oh woe is me I already ground too much so now if they make it easier I won't benefit". Don't be that guy. #1 let some other schmo burn themselves out while you cruise along and enjoy the ride. #2 if you do rush to the end, at least have the grace to recognize what you got out of it was enjoying the reward for an extra 5 months compared to the guy who hasn't even gotten it yet.


Quote:
Failing that, have you an alternative suggestion for how to make the Rep System more Alt Friendly?
To me, as much as the game got things off, I think Star Wars did something fascinating with Alts. Are you aware of the Legacy system for it? Each of your alts that maxes out something (character companion story arcs, hits max level, etc) unlocks passive bonuses based on giving all characters a taste of that character's abilities. Sort of like, as if getting a level 50 science officer gives all your engineers and tacs one science ability (edit: I'm not recommending this is how to implement it, as this would be severly broken, I'm just saying it as an example so you understand how the system works even if you don't know anything about that MMO's mechanics).

I would rather see this built into the rep system. Discounts are a bad idea no matter how you apply them. account bound gear is a bad idea unless it's mark 11 tops. (Edit to the edit: Champions has "heirloom gear" which is the mechanical equivalent of STOs blue levelless gear that maxed out heroes can ear and give to alts. Adding "Heirloom" projects at t4 and t5 might be a way to implement account bound gear. It's never as good as the Mark 12, but your alts could have a full romulan or reman set as soon as they can access the account bank. I could get behind this as it also gives us something to do with the omega and romulan marks that pile up once you're done building a character's stuff).

But tweak the passives, give some skills, etc. IF YOU LEVEL DIFFERENT TYPES OF ALTS. Make there be a reason to have a klingon science officer that gives all your alts something that a fed engineer wouldn't get.

THIS would be the way to do it.

Last edited by gavinruneblade; 08-22-2013 at 11:28 AM. Reason: Clarification of a point, and adding a new idea
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,887
# 8
08-22-2013, 11:37 AM
I just wish They would stop with all the individual types of Marks and just let us play the game the way we want...

Instead of trying to 'guide' us to what They want us to play.

Let me earn Marks in what ever fashion I prefer, and put it towards whichever Rep I desire.
...... DaveyNY ...STO Forum Member since February - 2009
..............Star Trek Fan since Thursday Sept. 8th, 1966
There are No Longer any STO Veterans... We're Just People who have Played the Game for the last 4.5 years.
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Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,764
# 9
08-22-2013, 04:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjumetley View Post
I just realized the tone of my post might have been taken as angry or something but I assure you it was not ... I also appreciate your efforts to come up with a sound solution to the problem.
I caught what I thought could be a hint of snippyness, but I tired to assume there wasn't any, didn't take it personally, I made effort not to bite back. It's all good my friend!

My efforts/thoughts might not be perfect. Just MY ideas. I'm glad it's opening up discussion on the topic


Quote:
Originally Posted by jjumetley View Post
...First I... then I start... One day I do... the next day...
I figured it was something like that, but >shrug< how was I to know... Maybe you don't work or have other commitments and can play 10hrs every day (Lucky! )

But how you talk about your latest two characters doing Nukara, and others already having Rom/Omega... I was the same way on several toons. So it sounds like you actually could get some benefit out of the discounts. And if such discounts did exist you might find it beneficial to stagger your toons more... Level-up a couple of them, fall back on others until they got the discount, etc.

As for commodities, since there's never enough storage/inventory to pre-buy everything, nor to port it around from one toon to another, I just make sure all my toons have a couple million credits on-hand each and they go buy 100-1,000 of whatever resource (be it commodities or hypos or whatever) they need at a time... I also try to stagger it so one character doesn't need the vendor today, but another does, then a third does tomorrow... So I'm not just spending an hour vendor-visiting on all my toons on one day...

Quote:
Originally Posted by gavinruneblade View Post
I have over 10 alts and ... I estimate I'll have all of them at t5 somewhere around Feb 2014 and I'm cool with that.
I think I did something similar... I quickly leveled my main couple toons each time a Rep came out... The others I do... whenever I do them. If it takes me until next year to finish... So be it. I'm not in a rush.

(Though lately I've had a lot of spare time and actually have made a ton of progress... I probably will be done with all my toons in ~1mo, unless they release something new to do back on my main toons.)


Quote:
Originally Posted by gavinruneblade View Post
...I think Star Wars did something fascinating with Alts. Are you aware of the Legacy system for it?
No, I hadn't heard how SW was running their system, but I think I get the theory. I'm not really a gamer with my STO addiction being the exception. In my youth I was a comic book geek, so when I got burned out on STO (twice now: During the 2011 Content Drought (just after S4), and during S6), I gave Champions Online a go. I still occasionally go play CO, but not often (as they're in a drought too, last I checked).

I love CO's Heirloom Gear! I never bother with gear while I rank up (and I have way more alts in CO than I do here in STO), I have a full Heirloom set that gets passed around to whichever toon I'm using and when I logout they stop by the Account Bank and drop it off for the next toon. It's brilliant! Only when they reach L40 (End Game in CO), do I start working on build-specific purple gear.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gavinruneblade View Post
...Discounts are a bad idea no matter how you apply them. account bound gear is a bad idea unless it's mark 11 tops...
Can you explain a bit more about what you think is a bad idea about Discounts and Account Bound Mk XII gear, please?

Quote:
Originally Posted by daveyny View Post
I just wish They would stop with all the individual types of Marks and just let us play the game the way we want...
Amen, Brother, Amen!

It's pre-F2P all over again. Remember when we had dozens of different Badges and Marks and Emblems, and some were for different tiers and some for Exploration Gear and some for PvP Gear, etc. etc. It was a mess. Then with F2P they consolidated all those currencies into the Almighty Dilithium with the express idea to keep things simple. Now we have more currencies than we did before.

And before anyone goes and argues the definition/semantics of the term "currency" I'm using to mean anything I "earn" that I use to "buy" another item. I'm considering Marks, Lobi, GPL, Dilithium, etc. etc... Leave it at that.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 650
# 10
10-04-2013, 01:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by daveyny View Post
I just wish They would stop with all the individual types of Marks and just let us play the game the way we want...

Instead of trying to 'guide' us to what They want us to play.

Let me earn Marks in what ever fashion I prefer, and put it towards whichever Rep I desire.
They missed their calling as kindergarten teachers!
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