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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 139
adjudicatorhawk,

Your time and efforts on these forums the last few days has been greatly appreciated. We rarely get this level of transparency and insight into the thoughts of the designers, and as passionate as our responses may become, we are thankful that you took the time to be honest with us.

It's easy to be passionate about a game we have all made into an online community. Most of that passion stems from our greater understanding of how the game works and flows, and just how much potential it has to make the leap from "almost there, but just missing the mark", to one of the best available MMO's in it's genre.

We recognize and accept that, like any MMO, Star Trek Online has to cater to the largest group of players first: the casual players. We don't think that you're mistaken in that mentality. However, we do feel that in balancing the game around casual play, you make it impossible to balance the game at high-end levels.

Most casual players eventually start to evolve to become more interested and invested in the game. Instead of having a diverse, stable end-game for more skilled players, the game starts to funnel them into a place where they realize that the options for success are actually very few. There aren't many things that work exceptionally well when facing off against an actual challenging opponent. It becomes frustrating to the evolving casual, because it isn't much fun.

What the casual player didn't realize before was that it would benefit them more for designers to balance for a stable end-game, and then work backwards to ease the slope of the learning curve for the casual players. They don't realize that balancing for the casual player is what leads to such a huge imbalance when playing with or against more highly skilled players. The casuals play a game where every ability is effective, so when a higher-skilled player who knows better comes around, they get absolutely crushed. This is why casual players often feel that high skilled players must be hacking. This is why there is so much complaining about skilled players sharing the same queues as casual players.

This is exactly why PvP and end-game PvE are where they are now.

This is where our community can help you!

It has become apparent to us that the developers feel that PvP and PvE are two completely unrelated entities. But they're not. PvP is actually a huge indicator when it comes to the parts of PvE the developers are constantly admitting may need some reworking.

An example (from your own admission in another post) is the technician duty officer, where you feel the recharge rate might be too high. But you're worried that changing it will have a negative effect in PvE. And you should be worried. What you're figuring out now is what the PvP community has known for a long time: Cruisers are as good as other ships in the game only after you effectively DOUBLE all their bridge officer abilities with technicians. Without technicians, no one plays a cruiser outside of a healing role (which right now is a role that isn't needed for PvE) because they just aren't good ships.

This isn't a new discovery, and anyone following the bleeding edge of PvP would already know this. And this is just one tiny aspect of the game that top-level PvP has insight into. It shouldn't come as much of a surprise that PvP is the best testing ground in the game for balance, as it offers the most difficult and challenging opponents. Not only that, but our community rigorously tests EVERYTHING to understand if it can provide an advantage.

We can help, we want to help, and we are a free resource just waiting to be tapped. Star Trek Online needs only minor changes to go from a casual-only game to a serious contender in the genre. Believe it or not, we want that more than you probably do.

It doesn't begin with us telling you what to specifically change. It begins with you starting to ask us for better understanding of where the game is now, and accepting that it's in a pretty tough spot.

We're ready to go.

And if you stay as involved as you've been so far, we're glad to have you around.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=93695767000&dateline=  1347284393
Lag Industries STO/TOR Guild

Last edited by voxlagind; 09-11-2013 at 10:21 AM.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 127
# 2
09-11-2013, 09:53 AM
More pvper supremacist rhetoric.

There are some elite pve-ers who test things as extensive as the best pvp-ers but they do it in the dominant environment of the game.

Just because we don't pvp doesn't mean we aren't as obsessed about every little bit of performance we can get out of our ships.

Though I agree the devs need to ask for help these days. They aren't doing a great job of fixing the games problems by themselves.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 139
# 3
09-11-2013, 09:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by poeddude View Post
More pvper supremacist rhetoric.

There are some elite pve-ers who test things as extensive as the best pvp-ers but they do it in the dominant environment of the game.

Just because we don't pvp doesn't mean we aren't as obsessed about every little bit of performance we can get out of our ships.

Though I agree the devs need to ask for help these days. They aren't doing a great job of fixing the games problems by themselves.
I do admit, that I was writing this to stir the feelings of PvPers (as I wrote in in the PvP forums). I didn't mean to imply that there aren't some amazing PvE'ers out there too. I'm sure you have probably found the same thing that we have: the higher you progress, the less you actually have to work with.

No offense was intended

EDIT: I facepalmed after re-reading the line I wrote: "the higher you progress, the less you actually have to work with", because it sums up my entire wall of text in one sentence. I need to be more concise.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=93695767000&dateline=  1347284393
Lag Industries STO/TOR Guild

Last edited by voxlagind; 09-11-2013 at 10:09 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 15,651
# 4
09-11-2013, 10:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by voxlagind View Post
I do admit, that I was writing this to stir the feelings of PvPers (as I wrote in in the PvP forums). I didn't mean to imply that there aren't some amazing PvE'ers out there too. I'm sure you have probably found the same thing that we have: the higher you progress, the less you actually have to work with.

No offense was intended
That's something that's oft overlooked in many of the PvP vs. PvE arguments...there are PvE folks that hate the state of PvE more than anybody else.

It's not so much a PvP vs. PvE thing...it's not even a case of Hardcore vs. Casual - what Cryptic's doing, although it may very well be what's keeping the game afloat and allowing further development...it's gone well beyond Casual. Even average/casual gamers are wondering what's going on...Cryptic's gone that far with it and there's no end in sight.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 139
# 5
09-11-2013, 10:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
That's something that's oft overlooked in many of the PvP vs. PvE arguments...there are PvE folks that hate the state of PvE more than anybody else.

It's not so much a PvP vs. PvE thing...it's not even a case of Hardcore vs. Casual - what Cryptic's doing, although it may very well be what's keeping the game afloat and allowing further development...it's gone well beyond Casual. Even average/casual gamers are wondering what's going on...Cryptic's gone that far with it and there's no end in sight.
I respect your opinon, I just don't think that the game is really that far gone. I don't think major overhauls or entire new concepts or additions to the game are necessary. All the pieces are in place, now they simply need to be rearranged to form a more solid foundation. Once the foundation is solid, the rest of it almost builds itself.

I understand that there will always be people who aren't happy with it, and it will never be perfect for every person. I also fully understand that a game 3+ years old is NEVER going to be completely overhauled without ruining itself.

What we want, and what we need are two very different things now.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=93695767000&dateline=  1347284393
Lag Industries STO/TOR Guild
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,707
# 6
09-11-2013, 10:43 AM
Well, I used to think devs didn't pay any attention to PvP but I've changed my mind recently. Devs do fix things for our community. Obviously they can't fix everything. Obviously some things are harder to fix than others. And obviously they can't dedicated 100% of their time to us. But still, you have to give credit when it's due. In the last couple of days alone they did some good for pvp: nerfing double tap and the black ball of goo. All these things are good for PvP in general, despite our mixed feelings (and our fear of healing power in sto).
STO is the BEST game ever and the players absolutely LOVE it.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 7
09-11-2013, 10:14 AM
Really great post Vox.

Well said, and I agree.


Quote:
Originally Posted by poeddude View Post
More pvper supremacist rhetoric.

There are some elite pve-ers who test things as extensive as the best pvp-ers but they do it in the dominant environment of the game.

Just because we don't pvp doesn't mean we aren't as obsessed about every little bit of performance we can get out of our ships.

There is a difference.


This is coming from someone whos background in MMOs is one of the performance obsessed, PvE environment crushing, 40 to 80 man raid games, etc.

That's right, I'm a reformed PvEr.


When many objectively minded PvPers evaluate something, they ask if its balanced - because whatever it is, it can be used on them as well as their opponents.

PvE lacks this dynamic. PvErs only use their powers on their opponents.


It should be no surprise that the PvE forums focus on

A) Powers/ships/abilities they feel underperform.
B) NPCs that are too powerful/annoying.


It's exceedingly rare that they ever go into "X is too powerful" outside of players who only play 1 ship/captain type and have a grudge against other ships/captain types.

Generally they might say the opposite, the elite ones anyway, "Y content is too easy". They like their power, they want to keep it. They "earned" it, now they want to crush new, harder enemies with it.


Elite PvErs who test things are more conerned with crushing the hell out of PvE, finishing things in record times. More power to them, go for it and have fun.

They very rarely report those things, they'll share it amongst themselves, word spreads - and if a nerf hammer ever comes down its usually because it becomes such common knowledge even casuals are posting it or because the devs in their datamining see a pattern they think is out of line with their design goals.



Not for nothing, ask a dozen PvPers if Double Tap beam overload is overpowered and you will have a knock-down drag out forum war.

Ask a dozen PvErs and they will probably tell you beam overload sucks for DPS.


So there really is quite a difference.


Last edited by ussultimatum; 09-11-2013 at 10:24 AM.
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 485
# 8
09-11-2013, 01:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by poeddude View Post
More pvper supremacist rhetoric.

There are some elite pve-ers who test things as extensive as the best pvp-ers but they do it in the dominant environment of the game.

Just because we don't pvp doesn't mean we aren't as obsessed about every little bit of performance we can get out of our ships.

Though I agree the devs need to ask for help these days. They aren't doing a great job of fixing the games problems by themselves.
Ok, PvP players do have a certain Ego. But PvE players rarely ever cycle Tactical Team, or carry an excess amount of resists. Nor is heavy amounts of Team Work Required to complete any given objective. Let us be honest, after you play Hive Onslaught Elite a few times, you figure out just how to Rofl Stomp the Borg without ever putting yourself in Danger. Doing all this while achieving Optionals, is more about playing the same way every time, then adapting to a dynamic enviorment. I am sorry, but PvE, even Elite PvE is still easy mode. We do more Damage in 2 seconds then the Tactical Cubes will do in 1 minute. We are deadlier then the Enviorment, since we think, adapt, and even cheat to win. So please do not say that PvE is equal in skill to PvP. As a player that has never PvPed will get Rofl Stomped in PvP. But the inverse is NOT True. Example of Builds used for PvE vs PvP.

PvE Scimitar Build.

DHC x5, mods do not matter
Turrets x3 mods do not matter

Rare Deflector
Rare Engine
Rare Core
Rare Shield

Consoles... does not really matter

I can spend 1 million EC and be just as effective as 90% of players in PvE...

My PvP ship costs me 180 million EC and is effective as 70% of players in PvP... but my DPS is in the upper 3% easily.

PvP Build

Disruptor DHC x5 (acc)x3 mods
Disruptor Turret x3 (acc)x3 mods

Very Rare Deflector
Fleet Advanced Engine
Fleet Elite Core
Fleet Elite Shield

Consoles

Tycho, Shield Adaptive
3 Piece Scimitar set
Disruptor Induction coilds x5

The difference is in design, please do not take it as me saying I am better then you because I PvP. I am saying that I am better at this game, because I have opened my horizons to play all aspects of the game. Which affords me more experience in developing my own playstyle and tactics. Everybody can be good at PvP, but if you do not try to be good at all aspects of the game... Can you really say that you are as good at the game as somebody who does? I think the answer there is no. PvP is a test of one's skill in game against another. Nothing more, nothing less. And before I started PvPing, I thought the Galaxy X was the best ship in game... Just to share with you, I was still completing Elites... in a Failaxy X... I didnt even use Tactical Team...

Play all aspects of the game, to be truly good at the game. As there is not one PvP player that does not PvE. We have to in order to grind.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 127
# 9
09-11-2013, 02:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vegie0 View Post
please do not take it as me saying I am better then you because I PvP. I am saying that I am better at this game, because I have opened my horizons to play all aspects of the game.
Bit of a contradiction there as PvE and PvP are the only 2 aspects of this game.

I always expect posts from pvpers to come down to "I'm better than you because I pvp" and i'm never disappointed.


Could you tell me exactly how pve is different from most pvp? Sure pvp has more abilities but tends to use them back to back the way NPCs do. People may try to out-maneuver you but keeping someone in your firing arc is the same in both pve and pvp. If a borg sphere moved and turned as fast as a player, had 7 weapon systems, 12 BO abilities (including 2x TT, 2x EPTS etc) and a couple of gimmick consoles there would be very little real difference between that and a player because the fundamental game system is so simple. Sure the NPCs don't cross heal much (some Elachi do) but give them the same tanking capabilities as a player and see what would happen.

I'd rather be in the top 5% of pve-ers than the top 20% of pvpers. Much larger pool to excel in. Just because you are in one does not mean you would make it into the other. Either way round. I suck at pvp. Mainly because I refuse to spec into all the crap necessary to excel at it. I also refuse to play a tactical captain despite how much Cryptic seem to want us all to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post
The true issue is the game lacks a cohesive vision, philosophy, or design. Is it trinity? Is it DPS focused everyone is equal but different? Should captain type determine role in a group or ship type? Or both? Heh.

How does cryptic want the game to be, what is their vision for PvE, PvP, ship setups, etc etc, until that question is answered everything else is just noise.
This. So much this. The key reason for the game being such a mess is the lack of direction at the most basic level of development. Something that has been lacking since they were forced to release the game way before it was ready.

Last edited by poeddude; 09-11-2013 at 02:14 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,356
# 10
09-11-2013, 02:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by poeddude View Post
Bit of a contradiction there as PvE and PvP are the only 2 aspects of this game.
Not to nitpick but that would be false.

Their is also the merchant aspect (buy/sell/farm/whatever), the DOFF aspect, and so on. In the end I likely spend more time doffing than anything else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ursusmorologus View Post
That's actually a good question.
In my eyes it is the only question. You cannot get good feedback if you don't ask the proper questions and honestly I blame the overwhelming quantity of noise in the feedback to be because of that.

How many times has it been asked that the devs make truly challenging PvE content that requires healers and tanks without even considering if required roles is a design goal for any content eh?
http://www.helpscout.net/75-customer...es-statistics/

Last edited by bareel; 09-11-2013 at 02:27 PM.
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