Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
Thought this was a pretty cool and interesting article:

Imagine you are a Federation citizen and ask yourself if any of these facts would seem a bit disconcerting to you:

* The Federation Council in ST:IV seems to have about a third of it's membership consisting of active duty Starfleet personnel. Picture Congress, Parliament, the UN, etc. consisting of that many active duty military personnel if any at all. It's almost a bit like a more subdued version of 'Starship Troopers.'

* In the few times we've seen one in action, the Federation President's only advisors, apart from a Changeling and the Romulan Ambassador of all people, have been Starfleet personnel exclusively on matters ranging from Earth security to rescue operations that might lead to interstellar war. Not one civilian advisor in sight to argue a non-Starfleet perspective.

* In addition, the President has no security personnel to speak of and is entirely reliant on the goodwill of Starfleet to protect him from harm, which on at least two occasions, has come from... you guessed it, Starfleet.

* Who was solely put in charge of the initiative to sue for peace with the Klingons? Starfleet. Who'd they send? A Captain who openly acknowledged his desire to let the Klingon Empire die by it's own hand. Who tried to sabotage that peace initiative? Starfleet. No civilian ambassadorial ships or at the very least civilian ambassadors could have been present at the opening talks with the Klingons? Sarek pushed for it, where was he? Spock's obviously trustworthy but as a member of Starfleet he is not entirely without conflict of interest.

* Who patrolled the streets of Earth in support of their own proposed Draconian security measures? Starfleet.

* Who got the weak President to institute such security measures without legislative approval by scaring the crap out of him? Starfleet.

* Who is solely responsible for the defense of Earth to the point that if they should become the problem themselves no one would stand in their way? Starfleet. Leyton didn't seem to think he would have much of a problem at all with his coup considering his support personnel seemed to consist of one Excelsior Class ship, some cadets, and assorted Starfleet personnel - though clearly not that many because all it took was capturing Leyton and disabling the Lakota to shut down the entire operation cold. Who did the "Conspiracy" aliens go after when they wanted to conquer the Federation? Starfleet command and captains. Who'd the Katarian Expansionists go after when they wanted to conquer the Federation with a glorified Tetris game? Starfleet. And why? Because they knew they were the entire key to the domination of the Federation.

* Who is in charge of building orbital habitats and housing a large portion of the population? Starfleet. This was Ben Sisko's job after Wolf 359. I mean, if they're your landlords it kind of makes you want to go along with the program so you don't lose your home doesn't it?

* Who's in charge of providing and protecting the key energy resources of Earth and the Federation? Starfleet. Cadets were able to take out the entire power grid of Earth without firing a shot or alerting a soul.

* Who investigates criminal acts of all varieties military and non-military related in or out of Federation territory? Starfleet.

* Who's the final arbiter on what does or does not constitute a lifeform in many cases? Starfleet.

* Who's the final word on the right of a pre-warp society to survive an extinction level event? Starfleet. Indeed individual captain's can make this decision without oversight.

* Who decides on a societies worthiness to join the Federation according to their value system? Starfleet. Again, individual captains can make this call.

* Who inducts new Federation members into the fold? Starfleet in many cases without civilian representatives.

* Who represented at least half of the peace delegation to the Khitomer Accords even though many of their number opposed it? Starfleet.

* Who routinely makes decisions that can and many times do plunge the Federation into war unilaterally without oversight? Starfleet. Picture our modern society but with generals and admirals or even colonels and captains making strategic decisions affecting the lives of billions on their own without civilian government involvement?

* Starfleet has sole authority for strategic weapons release, posessing weapons that can destroy entire planets and even solar systems at their disposal under the sole command of individual captains many times.

Now, if it were me, that kind of power in the hands of a single military organization would scare the living Hell out of me. The military should protect and serve the people through the freely elected government, it should not dictate policy or morality nor be given so much power that it could effectively conquer every aspect of society with barely a shot fired.

http://canonfodder.ex-astris-scienti...ration_Society
(Theory by Bond, James Bond)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2
02-01-2010, 05:02 PM
So modern day Burma and it's governance is in fact the inspiration for Starfleet.

Who woulda thunk it.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 3 Actually
02-05-2010, 01:10 PM
Starfleet isn't even a Military in the traditional sense, that's why NX-01 Enterprise had the MACOs which were military but overall the Federation is Starfleet and vice versa , and gotta remember too, all the corrupt things about the our modern goverments has been pretty much eliminated from the Federation. As far as the Captains go, cause you seem to harp on that alot, Starfleet Capts are generally considered to be the ideal of a Federation Citizen who in addition to acting as a military leader they also have to act as Ambassadors and scientists Capt Pike from the movie said it best, "Starfleet is a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada"

and several points that need correcting

Quote:
* In the few times we've seen one in action, the Federation President's only advisors, apart from a Changeling and the Romulan Ambassador of all people, have been Starfleet personnel exclusively on matters ranging from Earth security to rescue operations that might lead to interstellar war. Not one civilian advisor in sight to argue a non-Starfleet perspective.
Again Starfleet is the Federation so that kinda nullifies that, Also the president wasn't a member of starfleet, and the Arbiter from the Voyager Ep "Author,Author" was a Federation official not star fleet, and Sarek was a Federation ambassador again not starfleet.

which also answers
Quote:
* Who's the final arbiter on what does or does not constitute a lifeform in many cases? Starfleet.
I'm guessing you're referring to the TNG ep "Measure of a Man" in which was being argued if Data was Starfleet property or Federation Citizen, so it's a starfleet issue being dealt with by starfleet, also it took place on a starbase and time was of the essence so only Starfleet personnel were availble

Quote:
* Who's the final word on the right of a pre-warp society to survive an extinction level event? Starfleet. Indeed individual captain's can make this decision without oversight.
This is just wrong, it's the Prime Directive that decides this, while it's generally considered unbreakable Individuals Captains have the situational Authority to break it, case in point being when Picard ultimately chose to save Wesley's life in direct violation of the prime directive, had he said given a pre warp society some phasers then the consequences would have probably been greater.

Quote:
* Who decides on a societies worthiness to join the Federation according to their value system? Starfleet. Again, individual captains can make this call.
Again Wrong, ultimately it's the Federation Council that decides whether or not a society can join the Federation, and while a Starfleet Captain can give his recommendations or disapprovals, the power to join the Federation is up to the Council. Which is why it took Bajor to be offered a membership and part of Sisko's job was to get Bajor up to the Council's standards

Quote:
* Who routinely makes decisions that can and many times do plunge the Federation into war unilaterally without oversight? Starfleet. Picture our modern society but with generals and admirals or even colonels and captains making strategic decisions affecting the lives of billions on their own without civilian government involvement?
Well A. that's Starfleet's job and B. They were usually reacting to an aggresive force who weren't going to wait for a civilian Government to approve a war to attack and if you were to rewatch some of the TNG and DS9 eps you'll see they got some marching orders from the Federation Council. And our modern military does function like that today, while Congress and the President approve and direct war, it's the Military who make the strategic decisions and while they don't affect billions of lives they do affect lives, there are probably at least a thousand captains in Starfleet and if the Federation council had to approve every action they made nothing would get done, EVERY Captain in starfleet and shown on Screen have the ability to make decisions and do so, knowing that untold Trillions of lives could be affected by those decisions. Good Example of that is the Borg, in the Enterprise-D's first contact with the Borg, PIcard couldn't contact anyone about them but after trying to start any sort of dialogue with them, they attacked so he fought back and after the got back to Federation Space, he let starfleet know who let the Federation Council know, so that it became Borg=bad all because Picard had to make a decision.

Quote:
* Starfleet has sole authority for strategic weapons release, posessing weapons that can destroy entire planets and even solar systems at their disposal under the sole command of individual captains many times.
SO DOES EVERYONE ELSE! Nowhere in any series have I seen a ship equipped with such weapons unless you count the standard issue Phasers and Photon Torpedo launchers as those kind of weapons. Every time I've seen a Planet or Star System destroyed it was usually an accident or someone's mad scheme for some reason or another. and it was usually done with non standard tech or non Federation tech
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 4
02-05-2010, 01:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zandrominus
Thought this was a pretty cool and interesting article:

Imagine you are a Federation citizen and ask yourself if any of these facts would seem a bit disconcerting to you:

* The Federation Council in ST:IV seems to have about a third of it's membership consisting of active duty Starfleet personnel. Picture Congress, Parliament, the UN, etc. consisting of that many active duty military personnel if any at all. It's almost a bit like a more subdued version of 'Starship Troopers.'

* In the few times we've seen one in action, the Federation President's only advisors, apart from a Changeling and the Romulan Ambassador of all people, have been Starfleet personnel exclusively on matters ranging from Earth security to rescue operations that might lead to interstellar war. Not one civilian advisor in sight to argue a non-Starfleet perspective.

* In addition, the President has no security personnel to speak of and is entirely reliant on the goodwill of Starfleet to protect him from harm, which on at least two occasions, has come from... you guessed it, Starfleet.

* Who was solely put in charge of the initiative to sue for peace with the Klingons? Starfleet. Who'd they send? A Captain who openly acknowledged his desire to let the Klingon Empire die by it's own hand. Who tried to sabotage that peace initiative? Starfleet. No civilian ambassadorial ships or at the very least civilian ambassadors could have been present at the opening talks with the Klingons? Sarek pushed for it, where was he? Spock's obviously trustworthy but as a member of Starfleet he is not entirely without conflict of interest.

* Who patrolled the streets of Earth in support of their own proposed Draconian security measures? Starfleet.

* Who got the weak President to institute such security measures without legislative approval by scaring the crap out of him? Starfleet.

* Who is solely responsible for the defense of Earth to the point that if they should become the problem themselves no one would stand in their way? Starfleet. Leyton didn't seem to think he would have much of a problem at all with his coup considering his support personnel seemed to consist of one Excelsior Class ship, some cadets, and assorted Starfleet personnel - though clearly not that many because all it took was capturing Leyton and disabling the Lakota to shut down the entire operation cold. Who did the "Conspiracy" aliens go after when they wanted to conquer the Federation? Starfleet command and captains. Who'd the Katarian Expansionists go after when they wanted to conquer the Federation with a glorified Tetris game? Starfleet. And why? Because they knew they were the entire key to the domination of the Federation.

* Who is in charge of building orbital habitats and housing a large portion of the population? Starfleet. This was Ben Sisko's job after Wolf 359. I mean, if they're your landlords it kind of makes you want to go along with the program so you don't lose your home doesn't it?

* Who's in charge of providing and protecting the key energy resources of Earth and the Federation? Starfleet. Cadets were able to take out the entire power grid of Earth without firing a shot or alerting a soul.

* Who investigates criminal acts of all varieties military and non-military related in or out of Federation territory? Starfleet.

* Who's the final arbiter on what does or does not constitute a lifeform in many cases? Starfleet.

* Who's the final word on the right of a pre-warp society to survive an extinction level event? Starfleet. Indeed individual captain's can make this decision without oversight.

* Who decides on a societies worthiness to join the Federation according to their value system? Starfleet. Again, individual captains can make this call.

* Who inducts new Federation members into the fold? Starfleet in many cases without civilian representatives.

* Who represented at least half of the peace delegation to the Khitomer Accords even though many of their number opposed it? Starfleet.

* Who routinely makes decisions that can and many times do plunge the Federation into war unilaterally without oversight? Starfleet. Picture our modern society but with generals and admirals or even colonels and captains making strategic decisions affecting the lives of billions on their own without civilian government involvement?

* Starfleet has sole authority for strategic weapons release, posessing weapons that can destroy entire planets and even solar systems at their disposal under the sole command of individual captains many times.

Now, if it were me, that kind of power in the hands of a single military organization would scare the living Hell out of me. The military should protect and serve the people through the freely elected government, it should not dictate policy or morality nor be given so much power that it could effectively conquer every aspect of society with barely a shot fired.

http://canonfodder.ex-astris-scienti...ration_Society
(Theory by Bond, James Bond)
Very Interesting read there. Although the format looks like emails that get forwarded to me that are used to political ends. Just insert Democratic Party or Republican Party in place of some of those examples and interchange the two to tell the propaganda from both sides. Spin my political websters, spin!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 5
02-05-2010, 01:33 PM
Many states poses a Military, in this case Starfleet is a military in possession of a state.


But really Rodenburry's vision was that of a world where society and the human race has grown out of corruption, racism and self interest in favor of unity, peace, and improvement of quality of life for all.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 6
02-05-2010, 01:45 PM
Well, I might point out that:

1. Starfleet's responsibilities cover a much broader spectrum than simply fighting. They have experience in a great many activities concerned with the maintenance of their society and they know what it's like to be out in space (where the decisions have to happen).

2. They effectively police themselves by training their officers to hold to a moral code. Every one of those conspiracies that you mentioned was destroyed by an upstanding Starfleet officer. Clearly, there wasn't much of a problem.

3. What's with all the military hate anyway. Why is it simply assumed (as it always is when this topic arises) that the military having a say in matters is a bad thing. It's pretty much the only given in these discussions that the military having power is bad. Well, maybe this is news to some of you, but civilian governments routinely screw everything up, and a lot of military people (especially in the modern day, what with people's sense of entitlement and all) have their head on much straighter than anybody else I know. I fail to see what the problem would be even if they were a military

EDIT: You brought up Starship Troopers as an example of a government ruled by the military. But in all versions of that, I remember them having a rather more functional and efficient society than currently exists. It seems to me that that kind of kills the point you were trying to make.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 7
02-05-2010, 01:49 PM
Wasn't the Starfleet patrolling Earth streets because of the coup attempt?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 8
02-06-2010, 01:00 AM
Quote:
Picture our modern society but with generals and admirals or even colonels and captains making strategic decisions affecting the lives of billions on their own without civilian government involvement?
We would have a much more peaceful and prosperous world. (With fewer people.)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 9
02-06-2010, 04:03 AM
To be honest having democratically elected politicians make decisions is a foolish and terrifying concept.

I prefer Starfleet. At least by the point where they can make these decisions they have a lifetime of brainwashing to provide some measure of control.
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