Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 1 4 Days PvPing with Klingon...
02-02-2010, 11:06 PM
PvP is currently heavily slanted towards Klingon for simple fact of cloaking. This power is so easily abused, that even 'counters' such as sensor scan and tractor beam are only soft counters.

In well over a hundred pvp games, I've never been caught in stealth approaching the enemy. Not ever. It's so simple to avoid detection that you have to be trying to be seen. I see fed players drop mines and just laugh because that is simply a waste of a weapon slot for pvp. No cloaked player ever flys into mines unintentionally.

The fedball tactic is a simple byproduct of cloaking. Ask yourself, what do you do when you can't find the opponent? You group up. Safety in numbers and you don't know how many enemies are out there or where they could be. You don't even have the capability to find them. You simply have to wait for them to come to you, and they will.

When I attack with the pug it's always the same. Rarely do any of us ever team, we all know the drill. Target the weakest looking ship while the first person tanks. Usually I open because I'm a cruiser. Feds have almost no chance unless they instantly disable this player (me). If they don't, reverse shield polarity will give even the worst teamates enough time to focus down at least 1 target, at which point all moral is broken for the federation as any enemy that might get low simply blows a speed battery and evasions away to safety (if they don't have battlecloak). Even heavy focus fire it's difficult to take down a smart Klingon player.

Anyway, simple tactic. Usually the fed team wipes 5-1 or 5-0 and once they're spread out it's gg. Most of the time a couple have flown back during the fight and die to add up the tally not realize the battle is over. At this point very few battles continue as everyone just wants the game to be over so the federation proceeds to feed. They'd rather not have to deal with the cloaked attack again, they'd rather just take the loss.

Anyway I'm guessing my win rate at least for the 5v5 batles is around 80-90%, with the few losses being from games that were already over before joining.

I think that the cloaking playing field needs to be leveled. There are a number of methods including adding temporary vision locations/items on maps. They could fix Mask Energy Signature so that at least a couple weaker ships can stay hidden from the initial onslaught. They could also increase the sensor vision of all players. Honestly, all cloaked ships should instantly be detected around 5km in my opinion. Make it at least take some skill to use cloak.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2
02-02-2010, 11:10 PM
And coincidentally, in closed beta when both sides were of the same skill level - tier 1 was about 50/50, tier 2 was almost all fed and tier 3 was a tossup.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 3
02-03-2010, 12:48 AM
Right now PvP is just nothing but stupid in this game. It's absolutely no fun to play a faction that can never go on the offensive. That has only one valid strategy and that's to huddle together because they can't do a single damn thing that is in any way proactive, because they can't see their enemies, ever.

Then this entire idiotic thing with evasive meneuvers + engine battery. What a gooddamn piece of crap that is. If a Klingon ship gets target it can simply accelerate to 3km/s, drop combat and cloak and thereby reset the fight. Sure, a federation ship can technically do the same, but it doesn't help you any, because you're still visible afterward, your enemies will simply keep coming after you, not to mention the only "safe" place is the ball of ships you're forced into, so by running away from it you may have saved yourself for the moment, but you're just setting yourself up to get ganked by whoever is out there that you can't even see.

A game where an entire faction has absolutely perfect stealth is just dumb. Nothing but dumb. There is no strategy for federation players, because there is nothing for you to attack. You can only wait.

And there is no way to reset a fight as a Federation player, because you can't just turn your ship invisible and wait for a new opportunity to strike. If you're in a fight then you're in it for good. You can't run and hide the second it doesn't go your way.


Cryptic doesn't seem to understand that picking your battles is 90% of winning, and the way the game is currently set up only one faction gets to pick their battles and that faction just happens to also be able to reset any fights that they didn't pick well.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 4
02-03-2010, 01:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rothnang
Right now PvP is just nothing but stupid in this game. It's absolutely no fun to play a faction that can never go on the offensive. That has only one valid strategy and that's to huddle together because they can't do a single damn thing that is in any way proactive, because they can't see their enemies, ever.

Then this entire idiotic thing with evasive meneuvers + engine battery. What a gooddamn piece of crap that is. If a Klingon ship gets target it can simply accelerate to 3km/s, drop combat and cloak and thereby reset the fight. Sure, a federation ship can technically do the same, but it doesn't help you any, because you're still visible afterward, your enemies will simply keep coming after you, not to mention the only "safe" place is the ball of ships you're forced into, so by running away from it you may have saved yourself for the moment, but you're just setting yourself up to get ganked by whoever is out there that you can't even see.

A game where an entire faction has absolutely perfect stealth is just dumb. Nothing but dumb. There is no strategy for federation players, because there is nothing for you to attack. You can only wait.

And there is no way to reset a fight as a Federation player, because you can't just turn your ship invisible and wait for a new opportunity to strike. If you're in a fight then you're in it for good. You can't run and hide the second it doesn't go your way.


Cryptic doesn't seem to understand that picking your battles is 90% of winning, and the way the game is currently set up only one faction gets to pick their battles and that faction just happens to also be able to reset any fights that they didn't pick well.
Perfect post. I agree completely. Also, it's funny because in tier 2 it was a little more balanced and I kept telling the feds, "just wait until I get my cruiser." It's just ridiculous now. You add the capability to tank and support to the initial strategy and cloaking and the tables are just not fair. Sorry to be the one who has to spread the bad news.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 5
02-03-2010, 02:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustTray View Post
Perfect post. I agree completely. Also, it's funny because in tier 2 it was a little more balanced and I kept telling the feds, "just wait until I get my cruiser." It's just ridiculous now. You add the capability to tank and support to the initial strategy and cloaking and the tables are just not fair. Sorry to be the one who has to spread the bad news.
Then tell me, ive played over 100 PvP games (5vs5 Cracked planetoid) and ive seen 0 extend shields on Federation players. TELL ME why ?

How can you even say that we are OP, when your teams dont even support themselves ?

How can you demand anything when your Pugs play like **** and demand totally retarded things like instant cloak detection under 5km for all and nerf klingon shields etc ? what in the targ are you thinking ?

You can agree but the information given is flaved, you cant compare a team that has almost 0 support players who know what they are doing. Trust me our healer does 50 000 -75 000 in a tight game vs Feds and we have 4 players who can heal, but they focus on DPS instead and when someone needs help they start HELPING.

Fed teams suck aft big time, you have Science players but they have **** talents that dont help the team at all. Its totally inexperience thats showing in the 5vs5 games on fed side. And i put my hand on a bible and state this => ITS THE TRUTH.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 6
02-02-2010, 11:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustTray View Post
PvP is currently heavily slanted towards Klingon for simple fact of cloaking. This power is so easily abused, that even 'counters' such as sensor scan and tractor beam are only soft counters.

In well over a hundred pvp games, I've never been caught in stealth approaching the enemy. Not ever. It's so simple to avoid detection that you have to be trying to be seen. I see fed players drop mines and just laugh because that is simply a waste of a weapon slot for pvp. No cloaked player ever flys into mines unintentionally.

The fedball tactic is a simple byproduct of cloaking. Ask yourself, what do you do when you can't find the opponent? You group up. Safety in numbers and you don't know how many enemies are out there or where they could be. You don't even have the capability to find them. You simply have to wait for them to come to you, and they will.

When I attack with the pug it's always the same. Rarely do any of us ever team, we all know the drill. Target the weakest looking ship while the first person tanks. Usually I open because I'm a cruiser. Feds have almost no chance unless they instantly disable this player (me). If they don't, reverse shield polarity will give even the worst teamates enough time to focus down at least 1 target, at which point all moral is broken for the federation as any enemy that might get low simply blows a speed battery and evasions away to safety (if they don't have battlecloak). Even heavy focus fire it's difficult to take down a smart Klingon player.

Anyway, simple tactic. Usually the fed team wipes 5-1 or 5-0 and once they're spread out it's gg. Most of the time a couple have flown back during the fight and die to add up the tally not realize the battle is over. At this point very few battles continue as everyone just wants the game to be over so the federation proceeds to feed. They'd rather not have to deal with the cloaked attack again, they'd rather just take the loss.

Anyway I'm guessing my win rate at least for the 5v5 batles is around 80-90%, with the few losses being from games that were already over before joining.

I think that the cloaking playing field needs to be leveled. There are a number of methods including adding temporary vision locations/items on maps. They could fix Mask Energy Signature so that at least a couple weaker ships can stay hidden from the initial onslaught. They could also increase the sensor vision of all players. Honestly, all cloaked ships should instantly be detected around 5km in my opinion. Make it at least take some skill to use cloak.
Reading this it's obvious you never made it out of T1.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 7
02-02-2010, 11:24 PM
Please reassess your opinion once you're out of T1.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 8
02-02-2010, 11:34 PM
I can never understand why people who claim to be Klingon want them to be nerfed and if space PvP is so unbalanced why dont feds bycott it and just play ground.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 9
02-02-2010, 11:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azrael102 View Post
I can never understand why people who claim to be Klingon want them to be nerfed and if space PvP is so unbalanced why dont feds bycott it and just play ground.
We (speaking on behalf of the kdf, naturally) don't really care about t1. I mean, we don't want to be inconvenienced or have anything stupid happen.
What we are really afraid of however is a kneejerk reaction on cryptic's part like they did in closed beta when they changed the damage roloff range on ALL CANNONS because of feds crying about tier 1 pvp.

That was seriously a faceroll move by the devs - to nerf an entire class of weapons because the 'pve' dudes couldn't be bothered to put in half the effort in pvp that the pvp guys were. Totally unrelated nerf. Out of the blue.

That's why we administer the periodic smackdown to mouthy new folk. They are dangerous in numbers because lazy developers come in and count topics and come away with a note written down in ballpoint pen on the back of their hand "players complaining about kdf again. nerf?"

A swift kick in the mouth works wonders to make people realize they are shoddy newbs, and need to get back to the game and take a break from the forums a bit. People get so worked up and excited about their little topics, no matter how little merit it might have.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 10
02-02-2010, 11:54 PM
They had this problem in WoW, once death knights were released and they had all blue gear. The whinage was terrible.

At 80 though, it's near enough balanced. But anyway, cloak is here to stay, feds should learn to play.
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