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Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 24
Although there was some discussion in the past about that topic I would like to raise it again since I feel it was just lost.

Seriously - the singularity cores abilities are nice and fun in PvE but not really usefull in PvP - and they can not compensate for the -40(!) on energy levels. The Battle cloak can not compensate for that either ... hit and run sounds like a valid strategy in PvP - but it does not work against tanks. In a direct competition fed/kdf-ships will have a much higher survivability and firepower thanks to their higher energy levels:

- more energy on weapons = more damage
- more energy on impulse engine = more speed = more damage resistance
- more engery on shilds = faster shild regeneration
- more energy on aux = boosts many science skills

So please add the option to change the singulartiy core in warbirds for warp cores to get 50 base energy - or maybe some kind of "pvp singulartiy core" which comes without the abilities but with 50 base energy.

At this point I would like to at a quote from the April Ask Cryptic:

Quote:
Q: (dontdrunkimshoot) Will STO soon be able to use the Neverwinter PvP tools so PvP can finally get some attention?

STO Team: PvP is on the radar and something we?d like to update for STO. Stay tuned! Also, we are all proud of the recent graduates from PvP Boot Camp, and all the organizers and coaches! Great job to all involved with that program.
I'm pretty sure that adding a mechanig to the game which will be a penalty for romulan players in PvP will not do PvP good in any way ...
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 14,451
# 2
05-17-2013, 03:18 PM
As a fully geared level 50 Rom, what are your power levels in comparison to a fully geared level 50 non-Rom you've copied over to Tribble from Holo?
Captain
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 5,394
# 3
05-17-2013, 03:42 PM
I like the word useless. I'm going to subscribe to this thread to see where the discussion goes. I hope it garners some dev response. I know one dev previously discussed the power system disparity and suggested that the players were doing it wrong (that's me PARAPHRASING, the exact quote is different, I just don't have it handy). So yeah, I will be watching this topic!

Carry on.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,477
# 4
05-17-2013, 03:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by snoggymack22 View Post
I like the word useless. I'm going to subscribe to this thread to see where the discussion goes. I hope it garners some dev response. I know one dev previously discussed the power system disparity and suggested that the players were doing it wrong (that's me PARAPHRASING, the exact quote is different, I just don't have it handy). So yeah, I will be watching this topic!

Carry on.
Given the math that several people have done in the ship + singularity feedback thread:

With appropriate skill allocation, power level selection and equipment choice, Warbirds will do perfectly fine.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 24
# 5
05-17-2013, 03:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
As a fully geared level 50 Rom, what are your power levels in comparison to a fully geared level 50 non-Rom you've copied over to Tribble from Holo?
Ok I see where this is going ...

Yes, there are certain ways to increase the energy levels of ships like putting skill points into warp core efficiency and potential and *** Performance and using gear which increase energy levels. Also there are consoles which do increase the energy levels.

But that is not the point:

1. Using all these ways to max the energy levels does also mean that you have you sacrifice other things like damage resistance for that.

2. Since Fed/Kdf can do that too - so in the end the warbird will still suffer from the penalty on energy levels compared to a Fed/Kdf-Ship.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 14,451
# 6
05-17-2013, 03:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stirling191 View Post
Given the math that several people have done in the ship + singularity feedback thread:

With appropriate skill allocation, power level selection and equipment choice, Warbirds will do perfectly fine.
Cryptic took some of the wiggle away by allowing Fed/KDF to run x/15 instead of x/25 though. So it will increase the gap some potentially because of the loss of the Efficiency/Potential boost x/15 gives over x/25. Sure, it was only a case of dropping it from -10 to -8 at the x/15 vs. x/25 zone; but it definitely allowed some wiggle room.

Have to wonder if I blundered...meh. Going through and showing how it would be okay, not that bad...then not long after, the Fed/KDF get x/15 as well which threw everything off.

I haven't bothered to do a recalc. I probably should. I just kind of changed my avatar to Paradise Lost after that change though...meh.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 507
# 7
05-17-2013, 04:37 PM
.....Have you tested them in PvP on Tribble yet? If not, I question the validity on your statement.
KDF Future with Cryptic. Fact.

What Cryptic should consider before releasing anything.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 820
# 8
05-17-2013, 04:44 PM
I have and as tac the singularity powers are a total waste. and the power difference very noticeable.

-= ISE: 12:19 -=- CSE 12:41 -=- KASE 11:59 -=- HSe 8:06 total =-
-= KAGE 5:43 =-
[7:07] [Combat (Self)] Your Dual Disruptor Banks - Overload II deals 123086 (41096) Disruptor Damage(Critical) to Assimilated Carrier.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 854
# 9
05-17-2013, 05:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lostusthorn View Post
I have and as tac the singularity powers are a total waste. and the power difference very noticeable.
Well I'll tell you the first problem. You're trying to build it like you would any Federation or Klingon ship. You can't do that. But I can tell you're doing that because you're sitting there wanting your warp cores back.

If I may suggestion, just wait a week or two after launch, then go to the PvP section of these forums, and copy and paste somebody elses build for the Romulan ship you're using.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 14,451
# 10
05-17-2013, 05:11 PM
Fed Chel Grett vs. Rom Warbird

Both have +10 Weapon, +5 Engine

I'll go through a step by step process (color coded based on the above).

Will start each off with Cap/Remaining/Min/Min, eh?

110/100
70/70
20/15
15/15


110/100
30/30
20/15
15/15


-40 Shields

Add in Efficient Captain...

110/100
70/70
23/15
18/15


110/100
32/30
23/15
18/15


-38 Shields

Add in Warp Theorist, 6 Warp Core Potential, 6 Warp Core Efficiency, 6 Engine Performance, 6 Shield Performance, 0 Aux Performance, and 6 Weapon Performance...

123/100
84/70
45/15
32/15


123/100
52/30
45/15
32/15


-32 Shields

Add in a MACO 5stack, Borg, 0Point, and Nukara Console...

125(139)/100
100/70
57/15
44/15


125(139)/100
69/30
57/15
44/15


-31 Shields

Add in EPtS1/EPtW1...

125(164)/100
125/70
57/15
44/15


125(164)/100
94/30
57/15
44/15


-31 Shields

Add in Nukara engines...

(For the Chel, I'm going to make an adjustment here. Lower Shields by 5 and increase Engines by 5.)

125(164)/100
125(128)/65
61/20
44/15


125(164)/100
104/30
57/15
44/15


-21 Shields
-4 Engines


Add a Field Stabilizing Warp Core Mk X [Eff][S->W] for the Chel Grett...
Add a 5pip Field Stabilizing Singularity Core Mk X [whatver] for the Warbird...

125(169)/100
129/65
63/20
46/15


125(164)/100
119/30
57/15
44/15


-5 Weapons Overcap
-10 Shields
-6 Engines
-2 Auxliary


What started out as a deficit of -40 (for shields) ended with a deficit of -23 (spread across four subystems)...

A caveat, mind you. That's a 5pip of the Singularity. If you use a Singularity ability, it will drop you down to -33 power...including being -20 at shields (109 vs. 129)...

...which brings up the point somebody made in another thread about whether folks will give up that additional +10 power to a subsystem to use an ability or will they just sit on the 5pips as soon as possible?

Course, this is just one example. I basically took a guy I've got on Holo, switched Aegis engines for Nukara engines, added the Nukara console, and picked "similar" Warp/Singularity Cores. Different folks with different skills/gear/etc will obviously have different results...

...but like I said, I wasn't happy with the x/15 change. It basically allowed me to put an additional 20 power into shields which I could then drop to 15 additional while dropping another 5 back into engines.

This is what it looked like without the x/15 change for Fed/KDF:

125(168)/100
120/50
67/25
53/25


125(164)/100
119/30
57/15
44/15


-4 Weapons Overcap
-1 Shields
-10 Engines
-9 Auxiliary


Might think, but hey...that's -24 compared to -23! The other way's better! Cause it's also -34 vs. -33! The other way's better! 1pt better!

With the x/25 version, the difference in Shields without 5pips is -11.
With the x/15 version, the difference in Shields without 5pips is -20.
With the x/25 version, with 5pips the difference in Shields is -1.
With the x/15 version, with 5pips the difference in Shields is -10.

To me, imho, that makes it worse. I'm trying to have Eng/Aux at acceptable levels while trying to minimize the difference in Wep/Shields...

...yeah, I'm not a fan of the x/15 for Feds/KDF.
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