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Career Officer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 482
# 11
05-17-2013, 04:16 PM
Thanks Virus, but to play devil's advocate here. The Chel Grett doesn't come with a Battle Cloak, the Warbird does, meaning they can cloak and come out of it during battle every what... 30 seconds... for increased damage.

So while it's not a continuous bump to weapon power, and it's not as reliable as EPtW, it is a factor.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,665
# 12
05-17-2013, 04:27 PM
oh, you can set a subsystem to 15 now? so thats what that meant. i bet efficiency does wonders with such a low starting point. the power levels are concerning, but the romulan ship are in my opinion quite a bit better then the federation and klingon ships stat wise. except the d'deridex, which has to much tac to be a good tank and support ship, and not enough turn rate to be a real battle cruiser. that generous battle cruiser station setup didnt do it much good, if its going to keep that damning turn rate. a far bigger problem then energy levels, for it.

there i go again, ANYWAY, the good rom ships can use a 2 AtB /w tech doffs setup, in addition to reducing cool downs it can buff up your power levels across the board. in a somewhat unreliable hills and valleys sort of way, but its something. all the ships, but the d'deridex, can have 2 LT eng for easily running this, real handy because several of them cant have near the uptime on tactical skills with just a COM tac and little else.
gateway links-->Norvo Tigan, Telis Latto Ruwon, Sochie Heim, Solana Soleus
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 12,690
# 13
05-17-2013, 04:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ladymyajha View Post
Thanks Virus, but to play devil's advocate here. The Chel Grett doesn't come with a Battle Cloak, the Warbird does, meaning they can cloak and come out of it during battle every what... 30 seconds... for increased damage.

So while it's not a continuous bump to weapon power, and it's not as reliable as EPtW, it is a factor.
Even comparing BC boats, grab a BoP other than the B'rel to a Warbird - the numbers will be along the same lines but you'll be looking at the tankier Warbirds.

x/15 is -23/-33.
x/25 is -24/-34.

It's not so much about the amount of power as much as the location.

It's also the nagging thought about what x/15 will mean to certain Sci builds. Folks tend not to run Tet weapons with Tet Glider and other drain mechanics because you can't keep Weapons/Aux high...while also keeping Shields high enough, etc, etc, etc. The Sci won't need the overcap I gave the Weapons in that example. Shuffle some of that overcap into Shields, run Weapons/Aux high...grab some Leech - and...yeah... or heck, skip the Tets, grab Phased Polarons with Tet Glider and the rest, etc, etc, etc.

Heck, they boosted Photonic Fleet - so maybe the x/15's about helping out Sci too.

Course, none of this was taking into account all that an Eng could potentially do with power...the Manifold trait with DCE'd EPtX/EPtY or 2x EPtX means easy access to an additional +10 to all subsystems. Grab a WCE, maybe A2B, run Batt DOFFs, etc, etc, etc...

PvP is going to be interesting. Admittedly, at first it is going to be kind of funny - folks eating that month plus of Rep grind - the folks that have never flown a Battle Cloaking ship before (the complaints I've seen about it being broken as they die to torps have been kind of humorous)...

...then again, I'm not sure it matters. Personally, I'm planning on going K-Rom Fleet Torp'varo. That 2pc set bonus, KHG, and...yeah...

Heck, the Fleet BOgai with the 2pc - that additional drain protection, firing multiple BOs and still being able to drop out the Overcharge as well?

Yeah, there's some nasty sh...stuff that's going to be possible...as long as we buy the Refit/Retrofits. Heh, P2W complaints will likely be forthcoming...
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder - R'ebel, Romulan, Haakona
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba - Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethean, M.Qin
Lieutenant
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 45
# 14
05-17-2013, 08:22 PM
OK, how about this (this is just off the top of my head, and I apologize if someone else has already suggested this):

First, just completely get rid of the base power drain.

Second, make a toggle ability called "Charge Singularity Capacitor." With this ability activated, you incur a -X power drain to all systems (could be the current -10 or whatever). With this ability disabled, you build up no Singularity Charges and suffer no power loss. Any Singularity Charges that have been built up will not be lost or degrade until you trigger one of the Singularity Abilities or have been out of combat for a certain period of time. Any bonuses that a Singularity Core would give you due to charge level will be maintained while "holding on" to the charge.

Third, get rid of the Singularity Lock-out after using a power. By getting rid of the lock-out, people will use the abilities more freely instead of just holding on to the charge to off-set the power loss incurred with the current system.

Last edited by gurriknak; 05-17-2013 at 08:24 PM.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 172
# 15
05-17-2013, 09:19 PM
I've found that the only build somewhat feasible with the energy level penalty is a hardcore A2B build, such as these:
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/sh...d.php?t=531911
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/sh...d.php?t=654691

But even then you end up sacrificing survivability from ETx, AUX2SIFx, etc just to keep up with the power levels of warp core ships. Then there's the DPS loss from not having EPtWx up at all times.

I'm currently running my Warbird with a +Aux Singularity core and EPtA to max out my Auxiliary power, then keeping A2B up as much as possible. For hull heals I rely on HE since that heal is based on auxiliary power.
I've also put at least 6 points in every skill that gives me more power. A maxed out battery skill is also critical, along with endlessly popping batteries like a drunken sailor.

Probably the biggest downside to running on Singularity power is having to endlessly micromanage your power levels. It requires far more micromanagement than Warp Cores to be competitive. I can see why Romulan ships are so big. They require far more crew, half of which are needed just to manage power levels.

Due to the cooldown and the way singularity powers work, I just use singularity charges as a power bonus and only use the abilities as my "Oh, S**t!" button in emergencies.

Last edited by peter1z9; 05-17-2013 at 09:28 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 677
# 16
05-17-2013, 10:11 PM
I second this, give us an option to use normal warp cores and ditch the singularity spam toys we get.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 325
# 17
05-17-2013, 10:54 PM
While i wont say they will be completely useless they are at a big disadvantage from the start. Here is my posts in the ship/singularity core thread.

"And the power drain for Singularity cores is to much in my book at -40 at lower levels is far to heavy a price with already limited power. And since the singularity cores burn any power stored when an ability is used no point in making it that big of a drain. Throw in that the gap between Fed/KDF and romulans start off at -40 power and then we add in the fact that warp cores are vastly better at power output the gap only widens.

-20 is more balanced. The singularity powers are nice but not overly useful, battle cloak is the same if used poorly itll cost you your ship. Romulan ship cores already have enough down sides to balance it out without the drain being so steep.

They take time to charge.
The powers are weak.
They provide less power.
Once used they cant be used for 1 min.
Once used they have to recharge after 1min is up.
Once used you lose any +power gained for 1min.
Must maintain battle to keep charged, hard to make use of that battle cloak and keep core up.

Id say thats enough to balance them alone."

"Indeed this is one of the pitfalls of game designing. Every time i see a cooldown power in a game over 2mins i think to myself man they really didnt want anyone to use this right? The higher the cooldown the rarer the use of that power because people know its a "Oh Sh*t" button and to save it for the last min, but since you die and respawn/revive in most games people will put off using it completely just so its still available later.

End result its NEVER used. We run into the same problem with Sing cores not cause of the cooldown but the overall penalties. We spend a ton of skill points to mitigate the power loss, *which id do on any ship any how* but even mitigated we lag way behind in power.

So we charge our cores to get +10 power. +10 power to a fed/kdf ship is nice but not critical, 10 power to a rom ship who is -40 in the red? Totally vital. So am i going to blow that power for over a min+ for a gimick weak power? Sure, if its the last thing in a fight and i wont need to do anything for a while after anyhow. But aside from that? NO WAY IN HELL.

-20 power is fair and balanced. No matter how we try to make that up the gap is still there cause anything we can do a fed/kdf can do as well. And the sing powers just dont justify -40. They are nice, they are handy, but they are over all weak. Energy overcharge for example just does CRF for cannons and turrets but does LESS dmg. Sing jump gives a grav well but its weak and i see frigate npc fly away from it. Absorption is good but doesnt last long enough vs another person to be much of a deciding factor.

-20 power, and sing cores keep charge thats built out of combat, those 2 changes would make it all even. At current -40 power is far over estimating the value of the sing powers. And it seems they balanced the -40 vs the use of all 5 powers, problem is, you can only use 1 every min. So really it should be balanced around 1 power not 5."

"I suggest you try reading my post again man. No where did i say take them out, nor did i say i wanted to fly the ship like a carbon copy. I said to balance the usefulness of the powers they had to be considered as 1, and to that effect -40 for 1 power every 2mins roughly to charge it, would you give up 40 power for 1 cstore console even if it threw in a battle cloak? I wouldnt.

Cloak while nice for an alpha is tricky to use in pvp and pve with torp and mine spam. And a single special every 2 mins needs to be a real game changer like a buffed lance that lands a crit. Lets break down the powers.

Plasma shockwave, great for killing fighters and spam. Bout it, nothing a volley of FAW/CSV cant do with ease, not something worth 40 power. Sing jump, weak easily escape able grav well, with a straight jump in your forward direction, not far enough to escape much of anything, leaves your back to your enemy more then likely, not worth 40 power.

Warpshadow, not really useful at all, -40 power? ya right, though it is spiffy looking but bout all. Now down to the best 2. Energy overcharge, now with beams its about like firing BO 0.2 not BO1 increases beam dmg a lil bit bout a tac console worth, worth 40 power? no. Using cannons its a CRF with decreased dmg not increased, totally worthless.

Last Absorption, Gives good temp shield and hull, lasts decent duration. Could be a game changer if timed right, worth 40 power? Maybe.

Keep in mind im counting these at FULL 5 charge at their maxium usefulness.

1 out of 5 is a maybe on effectiveness for the price. Battle cloak for -40 power? BC is over rated even in good hands its not easy to use. Torp and mine spam by players and npcs means you gotta go a long way before you can use it. D'd running that far? not likely, most good pvpers wont let you run, and most endgame content like borg? Ya drop that shield vs the queen, btw borg target you cloaked or not. Watch donatra decloak and fire a blast right at you while your cloaked it blows.

Im not saying remove them, or increase their power, im saying the price for them is to high. Its cost to gain simple as that. -20 power makes sing cores more balanced -40 is just to high for what you get.

I personally like the ships, even as they are, but i dont look forward to trying to do a lot of stuff at endgame with it the way it is. Anyone thinking BC and sing powers are gonna be hugely helpful in pvp/endgame pve is gonna be disappointed. Tric mines/tholian mines + torpedos will crush those hopes and dreams.

Even if nothings changed ill play rom when it goes live. But -40 power will be a steep curve for a lot of players, just hope its not so steep it makes people go back to Fed/KDF because of it. If players want to play those factions i want it be because they like them, not because of to high a price. I like things balanced so people chose what they like and arent shoe horned into something because its the best option."



TLDR version - GO READ IT ANYHOW! =)

Last edited by jtoney3448; 05-17-2013 at 11:00 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 12,690
# 18
05-18-2013, 05:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by peter1z9 View Post
Probably the biggest downside to running on Singularity power is having to endlessly micromanage your power levels. It requires far more micromanagement than Warp Cores to be competitive.
Not directing this at you, but I've wondered about that in regard to some of the complaints.

Not just with the Singularity Cores, mind you - but many of the complaints with LoR...certain missions, certain enemies, etc, etc, etc.

LoR is kicking it up a notch in several areas...
...this is generating complaints.

Odds are that Cryptic will listen to their more casual playerbase as they have in the past.

It's a shame, imho.
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder - R'ebel, Romulan, Haakona
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba - Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethean, M.Qin
Commander
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 297
# 19
05-18-2013, 05:55 AM
I think you folks are too worked up over power levels. by virtue of exclusive to romulan only boffs (dual trait subterfuge and operative), you can have way more crit chance and crit damage, defense and battlecloak bonuses than fed/kdf are able to achieve. From my experience, all be it very limited pvp, more than makes up for a few extra power level points.

Just to moderately put things in prospective here, at a dead stop, my fed toon has a base defense of -15%. On my romulan its +7%. at 25 engine power, while in motion, defense is almost 80% if not higher.

To me this seems to balance things nicely, maybe even push it over in favor of warbirds.

*edit
so I double checked muh numbers, haven't been on tribble in a couple of days. Not moving, my defense is 20%(tho it reads 7.5% if I don't move at all after first going into the map, moving and stopping it reads 20%), moving at 15 engine power, 79%.

Last edited by threat21; 05-18-2013 at 07:07 AM.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 959
# 20
05-18-2013, 09:34 AM
The situation is complicated further by the fact that there are (dilithium) warp cores that add significant power, but no matching singularity cores.

For example By using Overcharged / SEP / W->S I got from:
125/100, 59/40, 73/45, 41/15
to
125/100, 69/40, 75/45, 47/15

a total gain of 18 power.
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