Ensign
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 12
# 191
05-20-2013, 12:30 AM
Warbirds, Federation Starships, Klingon Battleships, they are all governed by the same rules of the game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot
the margins for everything that actually works are very thin. some stat issues can be forgiven because they are made up something else. some stats can be lower then average without making a ship nonviable. sometimes theres an opportunity cost to fix a ships issues so that it can perform at a basic level, but that compensation has massive damning opportunity costs that make it wholly inferior to other options. other stats, if they are simply too low, ruin a ship utterly, so its not even possible to make it ok.

the d'deridex and bortas are good examples of that last description...
The stats are the D'Deridex have been put there by Cryptic
The chances of getting them changed are already small.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot
but guess what? those 1 trick ponies are a joke, and get laughed out of any team play
This includes PvE team play.
If you like this ship as it is, you're getting what you want. Be happy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot
but beyond that, it will still be a terrible ship. spending the vast majority of its time not able to do anything, wile any other warbird in its place can be fighting well the entire time.
If that is the style you want to play, yes, its just fine.

The rest of us really want the D'Deridex to be an incredible boon, and profitable to Cryptic.
And the Bortas did NOT sell well, not an opinion, Cryptic has stated this.

And as a similar ship, for similar reasons, the D'Deridex will NOT be, because it is fundamentally flawed.
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 801
# 192
05-20-2013, 01:04 AM
I think there's a huge misconception that everyone asking for a small increase in the turn rate are pvpers and/or escort players. I've never pvped, and until there are some major changes to it that actually make it interesting I probably never will. I'm also not someone stuck on escorts escorts escorts and a dps fanatic.

I am a simple player that loves the D'deridex and think it only needs a slight tweak of 1-2 points max added to the turn rate. I don't want to have to rely on cloaking every time to be able to turn, but I don't want sci or escort speeds either like some are suggesting.

Would adding 1-2 points to the turn rate really break anything? If it would I'd love to know what because I've been playing this game since F2P launch and I honestly can't think of one thing such a minor increase would affect.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 5,745
# 193
05-20-2013, 01:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by voicesdark View Post
I think there's a huge misconception that everyone asking for a small increase in the turn rate are pvpers and/or escort players. I've never pvped, and until there are some major changes to it that actually make it interesting I probably never will. I'm also not someone stuck on escorts escorts escorts and a dps fanatic.

I am a simple player that loves the D'deridex and think it only needs a slight tweak of 1-2 points max added to the turn rate. I don't want to have to rely on cloaking every time to be able to turn, but I don't want sci or escort speeds either like some are suggesting.

Would adding 1-2 points to the turn rate really break anything? If it would I'd love to know what because I've been playing this game since F2P launch and I honestly can't think of one thing such a minor increase would affect.
/this so much this.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 7,261
# 194
05-20-2013, 03:19 AM
they wont change it because it should turn worse then the galaxy, because. because its bigger i guess. just ignore that the cylindrical body ha'apax, which is NOT all hollow out, has that huge solid section, and a longer wing span, has that same 5 turn rate. going off size, that thing should have a .5 turn rate. that ship proboly has about 10 times the volume and mass of the d'deridex. that huge, thick, solid, section would displace a huge amount of space.

and you can split it into 2/3 and 1/3. the 2/3 section has TWICE the d'deridex's turn rate, and the 1/3 section has more then 3 times the turn rate. even though both section has many times more volume then the d'deridex.

WHY? because they cant allow an escort to suck, or a sci ship, its not ok for them to suck. they cant go below a certain suck threshold, only cruisers can. different rules and double standards for everything, and those rules oppress cruisers, because they are large, and theres not a single good thing about being large in this game.

well they are large so they cant turn! that makes sense right? to bad we built a game were turn rate is everything, and made DHCs the only energy weapon that deals more then a net of 0 damage in practice. we seriously made cruisers have beam weapons only as powerful as beam weapons you find on shuttles. we are insane enough to think that all that size and power generation and array length doesn't mean anything, and tiny escorts can pull 4 times as much firepower out of nowhere. thats the game we built, on purpose even.

never mind that nothing but DPS maters in pve, or that only spiky damage matters in pvp. team healing can be handled by all the wonderful hybrid sci/sci ships, because they can move about and react so much more easily. cruisers, and even more so eng captains, have been systematically pushed out of the game. power creep, and the uselessness eng captains bring to a team, and the need for nuke and spike growing with every new bit of power creep sees to that.

so, we are left with sci ships, escorts, and cruisers that can be escort replacements. a cruiser you can fly like an escort. people might not realize it, but when they say the d'deridex is not fine, its becase they cant fly it like a KDF, escort replacing, battle cruiser. thats a cruiser thats still effective. releasing a cruiser now, thats not like that, means your releasing a fail ship, as things stand now. we all like the d'deridex, we want to use it, but it cant be used like a battle cruiser, and theirs no effective alternative use for it. really. its not me, or us. there isn't this other ways it can be used so its fine. ive been trying to find these other ways for a long time, and every bit of new power creep makes any other way work less and less. because any other way is dealing pressure damage, and thats net effect of 0 damage, now.
gateway links-->Norvo Tigan, Telis Latto Ruwon, Sochie Heim, Solana Soleus
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 596
# 195
05-20-2013, 04:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
and theres not a single good thing about being large in this game.
WRONG! Cruisers get a few thousand more hull hit points! This makes up for their dismal turn rate and inability to use dual heavy cannons because of their terrible bridge officer layout and the aforementioned maneuverability issues. After all, as we all know, an extra few thousand hull makes all the difference in the world! [/sarcasm]


I don't always play Star Trek Online, but when I do, I'm grinding Argala.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 13
# 196
05-20-2013, 04:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikephorus View Post
WRONG! Cruisers get a few thousand more hull hit points! This makes up for their dismal turn rate and inability to use dual heavy cannons because of their terrible bridge officer layout and the aforementioned maneuverability issues. After all, as we all know, an extra few thousand hull makes all the difference in the world! [/sarcasm]
Hrrrmm... No?

Sorry, but these few more Hullpoints are not much worth. With low turnrate your survival depends more on TT and EPTS. You can not turn away and your hull wont endure long. sorry, but you argument is wrong.

The problem is the entire system. turnrate, weapons, hull, shields, bridge offiver abilities, etc... everything was just thrown together just carelessly. their values are not balanced.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 596
# 197
05-20-2013, 05:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tlazolteotl80 View Post
Hrrrmm... No?

Sorry, but these few more Hullpoints are not much worth. With low turnrate your survival depends more on TT and EPTS. You can not turn away and your hull wont endure long. sorry, but you argument is wrong.

The problem is the entire system. turnrate, weapons, hull, shields, bridge offiver abilities, etc... everything was just thrown together just carelessly. their values are not balanced.
Did you miss the [/sarcasm]?


I don't always play Star Trek Online, but when I do, I'm grinding Argala.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,325
# 198
05-20-2013, 05:52 AM
apparently not might want to bold and underline it lol
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 318
# 199
05-20-2013, 06:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by voicesdark View Post
I think there's a huge misconception that everyone asking for a small increase in the turn rate are pvpers and/or escort players. I've never pvped, and until there are some major changes to it that actually make it interesting I probably never will. I'm also not someone stuck on escorts escorts escorts and a dps fanatic.

I am a simple player that loves the D'deridex and think it only needs a slight tweak of 1-2 points max added to the turn rate. I don't want to have to rely on cloaking every time to be able to turn, but I don't want sci or escort speeds either like some are suggesting.

Would adding 1-2 points to the turn rate really break anything? If it would I'd love to know what because I've been playing this game since F2P launch and I honestly can't think of one thing such a minor increase would affect.
^ this. Sadly, however, this post will likely be ignored by trolls like Snoggy because it contains valid info and rational arguments.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 243
# 200
05-20-2013, 07:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cha0s1428 View Post
It is not really bragging. It is stating a fact that ESTFs aren't hard.

For months when I started playing, I had heard how they were the end game, hardest thing to do, sort of thing. I was actually a little intimidated to actually try one. I watched videos of people doing them, and it seemed you needed endless amounts of cooperation to even attempt them.

Then I tried one,

I had spent months and months tweaking my build and ships for pvp. It turns out that a pvp build is WAY overkill for ESTFs.

You think its bragging, but honestly its not. I have done hundreds of them by now and I can count on one hand the amount of people who actually know how to use their ship.

People who die to the gate, or a tac cube or even a standard cube just astound me. Dieing to one once a map or so is no big deal, as we all make mistakes. But the people who die 4, 5, 6 times in one STF....it happens every time I play one and I can't comprehend why.

But then I see comments in threads like this (not necessarily yours) where people are saying this ship's turn is fine, and it all makes sense. The vast majority of people are simply content with a fraction of their potential.
The hard part of the ESTFs is not the missions, it's the people you're randomly tossed in with if you don't have a known group to run with.

ISE is the easiest to get the optional on because you only need one person who knows what they're doing (and packs a bit of crowd control) to lock down the spheres when someone ignores strategy and just blows up a generator at random rather than burning them all at once. As long as the rest of the group has enough DPS and focuses it on the generators/transformer rather than getting distracted by the spheres, I can keep the nanite spheres away long enough for them to do the job...but I will usually die, because I'm putting all my efforts into locking down those spheres, and usually Tractor Beam Repulsors wil tick off the gateway in the process...and if it doesn't, when the transformer goes down, I suddenly have aggro on EVERY sphere and usually burned Evasive Maneuvers getting over to lock them down in the first place. I'm tough for a science ship, but having a dozen spheres focus firing on one quadrant? Yeah. But the worst part is knowing that that death would have been unnecessary if people had just fullowed the tactics...maybe actually turned on their team channel and paid attention to it.

KASE is similar, but you need two people who know what they're doing + DPS. CSE is almost impossible because you need EVERYONE drawing from the same playbook, and that almost never happens in PUGs (worse yet, the people who know how to do the run and are sick of getting stuck with players who cause you to fail because they play it like CS normal tend not to play it, leaving even fewer people to spread the word on how to do it right).

And remember, people dying isn't necessarily their fault. I die in ISE because I'm patching other people's messes. I'm dying because my science ship can't help stealing aggro from the poorly tuned rainbow beamboat and I can't always get away once all my heals, defensive buffs, etc. are on cooldown.

As for the D'deridex, why do I have the feeling you looked at the base turn number and then never actually tried it? RCS consoles help a lot more now, and the cloak is an enormous benefit to turn rate...which you can use in combat. If you can't turn when you need to, you're not planning far enough ahead. You have a tool to boost your turn rate enormously that no other cruiser has access to, but no, you want more. Because only people who die 4/5/6 times in STFs settle for using the (unique) tools they HAVE instead of demanding MORE.
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