Lt. Commander
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 165
# 201
05-20-2013, 06:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hyouki View Post
KASE is similar, but you need two people who know what they're doing + DPS. CSE is almost impossible because you need EVERYONE drawing from the same playbook, and that almost never happens in PUGs (worse yet, the people who know how to do the run and are sick of getting stuck with players who cause you to fail because they play it like CS normal tend not to play it, leaving even fewer people to spread the word on how to do it right).
Cure Space Elite can be done with Cure Space Normal tactics. You just have to be able to kill the Raptors quickly and efficiently. The only thing I have seen people 'fail' at the most is popping a second layer sphere and spawning the Negh'Var and Raptor without finishing the first layer completely.


Quote:
Originally Posted by hyouki View Post
As for the D'deridex, why do I have the feeling you looked at the base turn number and then never actually tried it? RCS consoles help a lot more now, and the cloak is an enormous benefit to turn rate...which you can use in combat. If you can't turn when you need to, you're not planning far enough ahead. You have a tool to boost your turn rate enormously that no other cruiser has access to, but no, you want more. Because only people who die 4/5/6 times in STFs settle for using the (unique) tools they HAVE instead of demanding MORE.
RCS's being useful is a new thing and will take some time before people pull them out of the 'EPS Transfer Conduit and RCS' bin and try them instead of putting yet another layer of Neutronium on.

Battle Cloak taking down shields is a valid concern, one that can be somewhat mitigated by 'Brace for Impact' in most situations. Combine that with a cruiser-strength hull and it might just be viable in Pvp.

I am looking forward to making a D'Deridex that works as well as I've made my Excelsior work. Put enough effort, research and gearing into it and any ship can do well in the game.

Last edited by yargomesh; 05-20-2013 at 07:29 AM.
Commander
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 394
# 202
05-20-2013, 07:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hyouki View Post

As for the D'deridex, why do I have the feeling you looked at the base turn number and then never actually tried it? RCS consoles help a lot more now, and the cloak is an enormous benefit to turn rate...which you can use in combat. If you can't turn when you need to, you're not planning far enough ahead. You have a tool to boost your turn rate enormously that no other cruiser has access to, but no, you want more. Because only people who die 4/5/6 times in STFs settle for using the (unique) tools they HAVE instead of demanding MORE.
Yes, I know RCS consoles help a lot more now, as well as SIT and Tachyo. I know exactly how much they help now because I know the numbers. On holodeck right now, trying to even use dual beams with an 18 turn on a fed cruiser is a pain in the butt, as you get just one escort zipping around and no matter how much APO, APA, EM or A2D you employ, 18 turn its just not threatening, especially when you have to sacrifice all of your eng slots for RCS and another slot for a tachyo to get it. With all of the changes to RCS, the turn of the D'd ends up being slightly worse on tribble while using every single slot dedicated to turn, than I have on holodeck with an 8 base.

I would hardly call a console that boosts the turn by 2 enormous though. now if it added that +2 straight to the BASE turn, then this whole thing would be moot, but it doesn't. anything that boosts turn by a percentage goes off the base. That console is now just honestly a zen paid for RCS console really, as it boosts by nearly the same, which is kind of lame to be honest, so I disagree that its something that no other cruiser has access to.

Battle Cloaking to boost your turn is a gimmick, and a poor substitute for a high base turn. Yes, it can be a nice tool, but enough people know how to counter battle cloak. There are threads and threads on how to do it, and it will become even more mainstream once everyone and their brother is using it. There is so much potential in the romulan ships for escorts to be rocking EWP, and you are going to start seeing a hell of a lot more stealth-counter builds. Once that happens, it might as well not even have battle cloak.

This is not a complaint about battle cloak or anything, don't get me wrong. But taking a mechanic that is so absolutely vital to be competitive in this game (turn rate), and place it on another mechanic that can and will be easily countered, and you have just basically stripped all reason to use the ship. The D'deridex will become a novelty ship like the Gal-X and even the Gal-R. You guys want to hold on to the belief that you know how to play and can make it awesome, hey great. Just don't be surprised when it joins the "joke" fleet.

But, given the types of comments here, most of you don't care about PvP, or a ship being competitive or not, so you have embraced the ship despite its very obvious shortcomings. They keep balancing he game around PvE, and nobody can figure out why PvP is becoming less fun with each update/gear set/reputation/ship.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 315
# 203
05-20-2013, 07:36 AM
Honestly, I've never really thought much for PvP. I find it generally brings out the worst in people, and the worst KIND of people. Given that there's no real purpose to PvP in this or really any other game (except Warhammer Online), there's little reason to PvP in STO other than to stroke one's e-peen.

Despite that, however, I actually want to learn PvP once LoR launches as I intend to make my FedRom my new main. I wanted to use the D'Deridex, as I've always favored "battleship" type vessels in any space game, but cruisers just...don't have that battleship feel. They're big and slow, but not really that much tougher than escorts and with less than half the damage output. Now I'll be the first to admit my lack of knowledge and experience in regards to PvP, but I've been playing this game since beta and have accomplished pretty much everything there *is* to accomplish in regard to PvE (yeah, I know it's not hard, shut up). I don't post often, despite being a Lifer since beta, because I prefer to regard the forums as a research tool rather than social interaction (mostly because I find "people", as a general rule, to be insufferably stupid, moreso when given anonymity).

This, however, is a subject I watch closely and have opinions about myself. Fed cruisers have always had horrific turn rates with no compensation for that weakness, with the exception of the god-awfully ugly Excelsior. Seriously, that thing belongs in a museum, not active duty. Why is it one of the best cruisers in the game? Nobody here is asking for the D'D, or any other cruisers for that matter, to turn like Escorts. Frankly, I HATE Escorts. Their playstyle bores the **** out of me. I want to play Star Trek, not Ace Combat. The KDF has always had cruisers with excellent turn rates to utilize their ability to equip DHCs, and when Feds complained about the poor turn rate of their own cruisers, KDF bitched up a storm with cries of "L2P noob" and yet they refuse to touch the Bortas because *le gasp* it has a horrible turn rate. People like Snoggy talk ****, jump to conclusions, put words in people's mouths, and make general asses of themselves, "calling them out" on requests that they're not making. Nobody is asking for the D'Deridex to turn like Escorts. We just want it to turn better than it does.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 9,202
# 204
05-20-2013, 07:49 AM
1 turn = ~1000 hull
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder
Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethaen, M.Qin - Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba
Captain
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 4,278
# 205
05-20-2013, 08:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by aveimperator View Post
Honestly, I've never really thought much for PvP. I find it generally brings out the worst in people, and the worst KIND of people. Given that there's no real purpose to PvP in this or really any other game (except Warhammer Online), there's little reason to PvP in STO other than to stroke one's e-peen.

Despite that, however, I actually want to learn PvP once LoR launches as I intend to make my FedRom my new main. I wanted to use the D'Deridex, as I've always favored "battleship" type vessels in any space game, but cruisers just...don't have that battleship feel. They're big and slow, but not really that much tougher than escorts and with less than half the damage output. Now I'll be the first to admit my lack of knowledge and experience in regards to PvP, but I've been playing this game since beta and have accomplished pretty much everything there *is* to accomplish in regard to PvE (yeah, I know it's not hard, shut up). I don't post often, despite being a Lifer since beta, because I prefer to regard the forums as a research tool rather than social interaction (mostly because I find "people", as a general rule, to be insufferably stupid, moreso when given anonymity).

This, however, is a subject I watch closely and have opinions about myself. Fed cruisers have always had horrific turn rates with no compensation for that weakness, with the exception of the god-awfully ugly Excelsior. Seriously, that thing belongs in a museum, not active duty. Why is it one of the best cruisers in the game? Nobody here is asking for the D'D, or any other cruisers for that matter, to turn like Escorts. Frankly, I HATE Escorts. Their playstyle bores the **** out of me. I want to play Star Trek, not Ace Combat. The KDF has always had cruisers with excellent turn rates to utilize their ability to equip DHCs, and when Feds complained about the poor turn rate of their own cruisers, KDF bitched up a storm with cries of "L2P noob" and yet they refuse to touch the Bortas because *le gasp* it has a horrible turn rate. People like Snoggy talk ****, jump to conclusions, put words in people's mouths, and make general asses of themselves, "calling them out" on requests that they're not making. Nobody is asking for the D'Deridex to turn like Escorts. We just want it to turn better than it does.
You keep calling me a troll. And insulting me. Yet in this very post you do all of those things you accuse me of doing.

Let's just start with the single biggest piece of misniformation you've posted here:

Quote:
They're big and slow, but not really that much tougher than escorts and with less than half the damage output.
It's your contention that cruisers do less than half the DPS of Escorts?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 165
# 206
05-20-2013, 10:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cha0s1428 View Post
But, given the types of comments here, most of you don't care about PvP, or a ship being competitive or not, so you have embraced the ship despite its very obvious shortcomings. They keep balancing he game around PvE, and nobody can figure out why PvP is becoming less fun with each update/gear set/reputation/ship.
You are correct in that the D'Deridex is not a competitive ship for PvP.

However, is that a problem with the ship? Competitive PvP is a niche interest at best and in my opinion one of the least fun ways to PvP.

Fun is a subjective argument. I still see Galaxies, Gal-X's and Bort's being flown despite their shortcomings, even in E-stf's. If they buff their turn rate then sweet, bonus turn. If not? Some will still find them fun.

Last edited by yargomesh; 05-20-2013 at 11:53 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,293
# 207
05-20-2013, 10:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by aveimperator View Post
^ this. Sadly, however, this post will likely be ignored by trolls like Snoggy because it contains valid info and rational arguments.
Snoggy's ignoring us because we aren't making ridiculous requests and justifying them with half-truths, gross exaggerations, and out right lies.
Captain
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 4,278
# 208
05-20-2013, 11:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sopwithsnipe View Post
Snoggy's ignoring us because we aren't making ridiculous requests and justifying them with half-truths, gross exaggerations, and out right lies.
"They're big and slow, but not really that much tougher than escorts and with less than half the damage output."

So Cryptic should up the turn rate of the D'Deridex because cruisers put out less than half the damage output of escorts?

Even though many cruiser pilots swear by DPS parses that say otherwise?

But I'm the one that's a troll?

Riiiiiiiight.

I know one of the more vocal proponents in this thread for how bad the D'Deridex is is Don'tdrunkimshoot. I'd love to hear drunk's commentary on how bad cruiser DPS is.

Have at it people! Show me how bad cruiser DPS is. Drop the math on me. And the parses. If Cruiser DPS is LESS THAN HALF of what Escort DPS is, maybe I'll change my tune?
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 800
# 209
05-20-2013, 11:47 AM
Reposting an earlier post. Why? Because throughout the last couple of pages this is one of the only posts that isn't utterly off topic and is completely unbiased towards a specific game content (ie PVP/PVE/STF, etc) so there are no valid claims of favoring change or not changing based on this.

I think there's a huge misconception that everyone asking for a small increase in the turn rate are pvpers and/or escort players. I've never pvped, and until there are some major changes to it that actually make it interesting I probably never will. I'm also not someone stuck on escorts escorts escorts and a dps fanatic.

I am a simple player that loves the D'deridex and think it only needs a slight tweak of 1-2 points max added to the turn rate. I don't want to have to rely on cloaking every time to be able to turn, but I don't want sci or escort speeds either like some are suggesting.

Would adding 1-2 points to the turn rate really break anything? If it would I'd love to know what because I've been playing this game since F2P launch and I honestly can't think of one thing such a minor increase would affect.
-----------------------------

Perhaps if there were more valid "in-game" points being discussed and less bashing each other and irrelevant talk of "canon", the Devs might actually weight in on this either way. Right now this thread is resembling a kindergarten playground rather than a serious conversation about something some feel needs to be changed and others don't.

Last edited by voicesdark; 05-20-2013 at 11:54 AM.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 10,564
# 210
05-20-2013, 11:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by voicesdark View Post
I think there's a huge misconception that everyone asking for a small increase in the turn rate are pvpers and/or escort players. I've never pvped, and until there are some major changes to it that actually make it interesting I probably never will. I'm also not someone stuck on escorts escorts escorts and a dps fanatic.

I am a simple player that loves the D'deridex and think it only needs a slight tweak of 1-2 points max added to the turn rate. I don't want to have to rely on cloaking every time to be able to turn, but I don't want sci or escort speeds either like some are suggesting.

Would adding 1-2 points to the turn rate really break anything? If it would I'd love to know what because I've been playing this game since F2P launch and I honestly can't think of one thing such a minor increase would affect.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aveimperator View Post
^ this. Sadly, however, this post will likely be ignored by trolls like Snoggy because it contains valid info and rational arguments.
Or does it?

I'm a long time player of the Free Oddy. To me.... a "dismal" turn rate isn't anything particularly bothersome. Then again.... I actually USE my Eng skills.... I'm also not afraid to disco everything in sight. Why? Because I know my ship can handle attracting aggro from multiple enemies. I have no problem flying the D'D or Ha'apax as-is. I don't even bother with RCS consoles....
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