Rihannsu
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 700
# 221
05-20-2013, 02:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dracondarknight View Post
The Galaxy and the D'dederix were pretty even btw . A sovereign was even stronger than it.
yeahh, your right, because outside 9f that one escort, its always the Sovys that are one hitting the cubes.. I truly believe they are without equal in this game..
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 7,080
# 222
05-20-2013, 03:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by snoggymack22 View Post
I know one of the more vocal proponents in this thread for how bad the D'Deridex is is Don'tdrunkimshoot. I'd love to hear drunk's commentary on how bad cruiser DPS is.

Have at it people! Show me how bad cruiser DPS is. Drop the math on me. And the parses. If Cruiser DPS is LESS THAN HALF of what Escort DPS is, maybe I'll change my tune?
ah, dps. please dont tell me thats what you think is the problem here, that cruisers cant DPS well, because they kinda can. but DPS is worthless, all the power creep killed it.

apply DPS and time and you win all pve. its not that simple in pvp. 10k dps cruisers in pve will only have about 500-2000 DPS in pvp, with the resistance levels you actually deal about 50-25% of your listed damage to the target. your target's heals, regeneration, proc heals, and sky high resistance levels out heals that gradual, constant DPS faster then it is applied.

it has nothing to do with how high the DPS you can produce is, its all about the delivery. if its front loaded, like it is from BO and DHCs, you can remove an entire shield faceing in a single cycle. gradual pressure damage has to deal with manual distribution transferring shields when it deals damage, it has to shoot through all 4 facings before it will get a shot at hull. DHC and other spike can get to hull on demand, pressure never can, never damage hull, and thus never actually hurt your target.

it doesn't mater how high the DPS is, if its totally ineffective. pressure damage has a net of 0 damage dealing as a result. any amount of cross healing makes pressure damage do less then nothing, in so that it sets off proc heals on your target, your better off not fireing energy weapons if you are flying a heal boat.

not being about to be flown like a battle cruiser with escort weapons makes the d'deridex crap. all i want is it to move as well as a negvar, the fattest usable battle cruiser.
gateway links-->Norvo Tigan, Telis Latto Ruwon, Sochie Heim, Solana Soleus
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 13,995
# 223
05-20-2013, 03:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wufangchu View Post
ROFLMAO... I'm neither a fanboy nor outraged.. I have my style and you have yours which is fine, but your estimation of me while bordering on insulting, is also way off mark..
ORLY? Much of your argument was from a strictly in-universe perspective, thus fanboy.

But that's beside the point. My point was that your post had more to do with in-universe comparisons than game balance. I get that you don't like heavy cruisers. Personally, I disagree with this, but whatevs....
HAIL HYDRA!

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Captain
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 5,394
# 224
05-20-2013, 04:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
ah, dps. please dont tell me thats what you think is the problem here, that cruisers cant DPS well, because they kinda can. but DPS is worthless, all the power creep killed it.

apply DPS and time and you win all pve. its not that simple in pvp. 10k dps cruisers in pve will only have about 500-2000 DPS in pvp, with the resistance levels you actually deal about 50-25% of your listed damage to the target. your target's heals, regeneration, proc heals, and sky high resistance levels out heals that gradual, constant DPS faster then it is applied.

it has nothing to do with how high the DPS you can produce is, its all about the delivery. if its front loaded, like it is from BO and DHCs, you can remove an entire shield faceing in a single cycle. gradual pressure damage has to deal with manual distribution transferring shields when it deals damage, it has to shoot through all 4 facings before it will get a shot at hull. DHC and other spike can get to hull on demand, pressure never can, never damage hull, and thus never actually hurt your target.

it doesn't mater how high the DPS is, if its totally ineffective. pressure damage has a net of 0 damage dealing as a result. any amount of cross healing makes pressure damage do less then nothing, in so that it sets off proc heals on your target, your better off not fireing energy weapons if you are flying a heal boat.

not being about to be flown like a battle cruiser with escort weapons makes the d'deridex crap. all i want is it to move as well as a negvar, the fattest usable battle cruiser.
So, here's the thing. I keep getting attacked, insulted and called a troll. But what this entire discussion keeps boiling down to is people don't like to turn slow. When questioned about if the ship is ineffective, I get told this:

"They're big and slow, but not really that much tougher than escorts and with less than half the damage output."

So really, what's the deal drunk? Are cruisers that bad at deeps? If so, then I'm all for bumping up their agility.

But I've been led to believe that cruisers are not bad at deeps. That they can do all kinds of neat deeps tricks. And that it's escorts that are hard pressed to keep up with cruisers.

If that's the case, then this ship, which is heavily tac focused, would seem to be ... I guess the word I'm looking for is ... fine?

The entirety of this thread has boiled down to two reasons to buff its turn rate:

1- Personal preference. People don't like turning slow.
2- Cruisers are bad at DEEPs.

I don't find reason 1 to be something that will compel the developers to change the ship. Especially since it has a built in trick (it's own battle cloak) to help overcome that. And isn't there a console set bonus to boost the innate turn-rate?

I would find reason 2 compelling to push for increased agility. But everything I've been told about cruisers is that their DEEPs is pretty good. With a ton of hyperbole mixed into the mix.

The only other thing I can think of is, people just want the excelsior layout with a D'Deridex skin. That's disappointing.
Republic Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 184
# 225
05-20-2013, 04:16 PM
Alright I was firmly in the "D'deridex is fine" camp, but with the Tal Shiar Adapted Battle Cruiser having a turn rate of 7 despite being a D'deridex with a bunch of borg crap bolted onto it, there's no logical reason left to keep the D'deridex at its current turn rate.

And don't say that the borg crap makes it more maneuverable because the Tal Shiar Adapted Destroyer is a borg'd up Dhelan and that gets its turn rate knocked down to 11.

If the Warcrab turns at 7, the D'deridex should turn at at least 8 if not 9.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 318
# 226
05-20-2013, 04:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by msk5 View Post
Alright I was firmly in the "D'deridex is fine" camp, but with the Tal Shiar Adapted Battle Cruiser having a turn rate of 7 despite being a D'deridex with a bunch of borg crap bolted onto it, there's no logical reason left to keep the D'deridex at its current turn rate.

And don't say that the borg crap makes it more maneuverable because the Tal Shiar Adapted Destroyer is a borg'd up Dhelan and that gets its turn rate knocked down to 11.

If the Warcrab turns at 7, the D'deridex should turn at at least 8 if not 9.
^This.

Also, Snoggy, thanks for proving my point. I made an entire post, yet you latch onto one line of obvious trollbait like it's all I've ever said and ignore everything else. Either take the whole post into account, or just stop talking.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 64
# 227
05-20-2013, 04:48 PM
Then I want a base turnrate of 10 for all Federation cruisers; including the Galaxy X
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 7,080
# 228
05-20-2013, 04:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by snoggymack22 View Post
So, here's the thing. I keep getting attacked, insulted and called a troll. But what this entire discussion keeps boiling down to is people don't like to turn slow. When questioned about if the ship is ineffective, I get told this:

"They're big and slow, but not really that much tougher than escorts and with less than half the damage output."

So really, what's the deal drunk? Are cruisers that bad at deeps? If so, then I'm all for bumping up their agility.

But I've been led to believe that cruisers are not bad at deeps. That they can do all kinds of neat deeps tricks. And that it's escorts that are hard pressed to keep up with cruisers.

If that's the case, then this ship, which is heavily tac focused, would seem to be ... I guess the word I'm looking for is ... fine?

The entirety of this thread has boiled down to two reasons to buff its turn rate:

1- Personal preference. People don't like turning slow.
2- Cruisers are bad at DEEPs.

I don't find reason 1 to be something that will compel the developers to change the ship. Especially since it has a built in trick (it's own battle cloak) to help overcome that. And isn't there a console set bonus to boost the innate turn-rate?

I would find reason 2 compelling to push for increased agility. But everything I've been told about cruisers is that their DEEPs is pretty good. With a ton of hyperbole mixed into the mix.

The only other thing I can think of is, people just want the excelsior layout with a D'Deridex skin. That's disappointing.
90% of the people in this thread are pve'ers, and i really dont know what their motivation is. all i know is they have a limited frame of reference, and are repeating things pvp'ers say without understanding it as well as they think they do.

if it turns better, its gonna sell beter, its that simple. i dont know, if the ship is good they think people will just buy that and none of the other ships. which is bull, it would still be no escort or sci ship, but a battle cruiser. turning better wile BC'ed makes very little sense, and is worth nothing in an actual battle you are participating in. that console buff does not effect the BASE turn rate, becase nothing like this ever has, so only a measly 2 turn is a drop in the bucket when good battle cruisers have between 25 and 35 after a bunch of turn consoles are used. the d'deridex starting at 5 wont see 20, wile uncloaked.

here are some truths though

1. low turn rates suck in every way. not only is it a quality of life issue, but your ability to direct fire and if your ship cant react at the speed you react is fundamentally aggravating. people dont want the ship, thats the entire reason they want a romulan faction, to aggravate them.

2. its not that cruisers suck at DPS, its that DPS sucks. dps vs spike. 1 of those things is always good, the other is terrible in pvp. cruisers, especially the ones i used to run, did hilarious amounts of DPS, especially when they changed AtB to the AtX system cooldown, and i came up with the 2 AtB cruisers. then rep, embassy console proc heals, and the elite shields happened, and pressure was directly countered to the point were its just pissing in the wind. regardless of how much DPS you produce.

so i dont run my excelsior anymore, but i do run my vorcha, ktinga, kamarang and negvar. why? because they deal front loaded, DHC+torp/BO damage. they can do that because they have a high enough base turn rate that their durability and their levels of spike let them be a unique, and effective ship. the ships to slow or are limited to only pressure damage will never be able to do the effective damage a battle cruiser can deal, even if the fed cruiser is dealing more DPS, according to scoreboards and parcers.


SO, im in this thread complaining because i want to be able to use the d'deridex like my KDF cruisers, because not only is that fun, but its effective. i dont want them to release the d'deridex as a frustrating, aggravating, ineffective ship, with good levels of DPS. because again, DPS and effective damage are 2 different things. apply a DPS ratting to a 10 second period of spike, and then 20 seconds or so of just mostly turret plinking, and your dps score is gonna be bad. but when you spike effectively, that doesn't mater at all. pve is different of course. DPS is what you want, spike just comes in hills and vallies. escorts can still out pressure cruisers in pve though. they are still best at spike and pressure. and can direct it best, with no down time, reacting at the speed the user reacts, and they are a pleasure to use as a result
gateway links-->Norvo Tigan, Telis Latto Ruwon, Sochie Heim, Solana Soleus
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 7,080
# 229
05-20-2013, 04:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dracondarknight View Post
Then I want a base turnrate of 10 for all Federation cruisers; including the Galaxy X
i not sarcastically want 10, or at least 8, to be the cruiser turn rate floor. if the floor was raised, none of the cruisers would be as bad as they are now
gateway links-->Norvo Tigan, Telis Latto Ruwon, Sochie Heim, Solana Soleus
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 478
# 230
05-20-2013, 05:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by msk5 View Post
Alright I was firmly in the "D'deridex is fine" camp, but with the Tal Shiar Adapted Battle Cruiser having a turn rate of 7 despite being a D'deridex with a bunch of borg crap bolted onto it, there's no logical reason left to keep the D'deridex at its current turn rate.

And don't say that the borg crap makes it more maneuverable because the Tal Shiar Adapted Destroyer is a borg'd up Dhelan and that gets its turn rate knocked down to 11.

If the Warcrab turns at 7, the D'deridex should turn at at least 8 if not 9.
Wild guess...I randomly just talk out of my arse...but the reason why is cause it has less hull than the normal d, plus its using adapted borg core instead of the regular core, its battle cloak is gone, meaning.....

no battle cloak, less turn ability....I dunno, I just look at the ship stats and thats what I see....
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