Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,205
# 251
05-23-2013, 12:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by reginamala78 View Post
Impulse Cell and Nadeon Detonator were already in lockboxes. Transwarp Computer, I admit I thought it was limited to the T3 Excelsior, but I looked up and see I was incorrect. Wide-angle, yeah that seems fair somewhere, or maybe give the Klingons a wide-angle photon or something for local flavor (I like photons better anyways).

As for 'advantages of Federation ships,' I have to go 'huh?' though. Feds have more variety and fleet discounts definitely, no argument there. But superior ships? I just don't see it beyond a few percent advantage here, a few percent drawback there.

The Vesta is definitely a superior science ship, but against the rest the Varanus stacks up just fine. (And lets be honest, this is science we're talking about.) There's also the Voquv vs the Atrox, which stack pretty evenly and comes down to pet preference. Then there's the Karfi which is unlike anything Fed side. Cruisers, KDF battlecruiser knock the stuffing out of their Fed counterparts with comparable boff layouts, hulls, and shielding, but superior power distribution and maneuverability with no drawbacks.

Then there's escorts, where hulls shields and maneuverability are about the same, but Feds do have a lot more variety in layouts available. However, Klingons also get the BoP which has any layout you want and the only Federation 'counterpart' is the joke Aquarius. There IS the Kumari with its 5 forward weapons, but what it pays for those, every one of my fleetmates who bought the thing went back to what they were driving earlier, and they're much better escort pilots than I so I'll trust their judgement on that ship. The only real escort difference left then is the 5th tac console (which amounts to what 5% more damage?) versus cloaking devices. One allows a little more pressure damage but always works (though costs you a console somewhere else), the other is finicky but when it does work grants complete tactical initiative.

So science is close with Feds having 1 better ship. Carriers go to Klingons. Cruisers go to Klingons. Multipurpose ships go to Klingons. Escorts are close with the Feds having a slight edge that could be fixed with another release or two for better BOFF seating. And thats not even bringing up the extras in consoles or cloaks, which is another all-around KDF advantage, major or minor a bonus as they may be, but a separate discussion. So whats the 'superiority' that I'm missing, because I don't see it?
Hull, shielding, power, weapons. To get the imbalance you're referencing, you have to be comparing T5 KDF to T4 Feds, esp. on the sci-ships, the Varanus is about equal to the "Free" fed-ship one tier lower in every respect except number of weapons hardpoints, the KDF BC's ARE nice, but they lack sci ship support, have inferior shielding, and thinner hulls, the Bird of Prey is multipurpose-and the easiest ship in the game to kill, Raptors suffer a major handicap in how their turn-pivot is mapped rendering 'book numbers' only a quarter of the story when comparing them to same-or-lower tier Fed vessels in the same class.

Cloak? takes a lot of practice and work to make it an asset, instead of a handicap-some fed players who've been under the misconception that it's a major asset that requires no skill (i.e. overpowered) are going to find out the hard way on their Romulans that it's actually pretty easy to get decloaked and killed by the other side, or brought down to nothing on your hull by simple, expedient things like minefields and warp plasma.

of course, this will be a much, much gentler lesson than if they rolled a KDF toon and spent more than a couple passes in PvP against feds who know what they're doing, because the rommie ships at least have decent hulls. One of the best measures of how good or bad a console is, is how many people in the originating faction use it on a regular basis.

The Emissions Seeker is almost never used by Feds, the Plasmonic Leech is used extensively by KDF players, esp. on vessels like the Bird of Prey-which is, I reiterate, the softest, easiest kill in the game, and comes on a ship that costs MORE than the Emissions seeker does.

The tech-transfer is unbalanced. THAT is the problem.
"when you're out of Birds of Prey, you're out of ships."

Are you KDF looking for a reason to log in to your KDF Main? consider that every time you do, you're giving the finger to the people that want the KDF as a faction to die out from neglect.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,205
# 252
05-23-2013, 12:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by iskandus View Post
Don't be so certain. With cloaked ships becoming as common as rats on the streets, there is a pressing need for a more effective counter to cloaked ships. The Emission-Seeking torp was a noble idea that never got off the ground due to poor design some years ago. Following that, there was no pressure to review it as most Feds just gave up on using it so the Dev did nothing. If there is a time to review that console, it's now.

Besides, the Leech is only powerful in the hands of those who know how to use it. The base drain of Leech is merely 1 point per sec up to 8 ticks max. In principle, with 50% drain resist, the base drain is only a laughable 4 points, which most players would just shrug off as irrelevant. The screenshot you are looking at is from someone who boosts that base drain by almost 300% from careful spec planning in skills and traits and boff powers. There is also an opportunity cost for equipping this console as I had to give up on another very useful one in order to accommodate the Leech. It's definitely not without cost but you know that already.

What I find curious is while Leech was an exclusive Klignon tool, the Klignons such as yourself, never called for it to be nerfed and many said it was not OP, merely a "fair" console. Now that Starfleet also has access to it, it became the end of the world? So Klignons are finally admitting it was OP all along, hence the need to nerf? Talking about double standard...and the lack of honor. Case in point, I am in favor of the Human Leadership trait being nerfed, wholeheartly. As you can see in my boff set up, I use only two, it has been that way for a long time. I never approved those who abused the exploit with 5 human boff + the captain = 6 human leadership traits. Besides, my toon is a Betazoid, so my use of Leadership trait has been limited to only 2 from the boff, which unlike those who use 6 copies and virtually instantly heal their hulls. There are things that need to be fixed in this game but if something is only suddenly OP because the other faction now has it too, then it's hypocrisy pure and simple.
The problem you're missing, Iskandus, is that it BECOMES an OP item-plas leech procs based on hits-five weapons (see: Andorian Escort) hitting multiple times (See: DHC or dual Cannons) is certainly going to have more impact, more quickly, with a longer sustained rate, than three or four DHC's, with more integral punch as well, doing more damage, at less sacrifice.
Likewise, it's EASIER to build and spec a drain build for the Fed than the KDF, as it is easier to spec for insulators to counter a drain build, thanks to the imbalance in science console slots inherent between the factions (re: the ability to equip power insulators-which, as a fed fighting KDF prior to this, you should already know-spec for insulators and your drain issues mostly disappear.) Your numbers on your fed drain build? guess what?

you can't do that on a KDF ship without Aceton, there just isn't hte console space.

as I said, it's OP NOW, because NOW you can actually get the optimum combination to use it-Fedside, an optimum combination you can't GET KDF side. KDF side there's no way to build an opposing layout to resist the effects.
"when you're out of Birds of Prey, you're out of ships."

Are you KDF looking for a reason to log in to your KDF Main? consider that every time you do, you're giving the finger to the people that want the KDF as a faction to die out from neglect.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,704
# 253
05-23-2013, 12:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickngo View Post
Hull, shielding, power, weapons. To get the imbalance you're referencing, you have to be comparing T5 KDF to T4 Feds, esp. on the sci-ships, the Varanus is about equal to the "Free" fed-ship one tier lower in every respect except number of weapons hardpoints, the KDF BC's ARE nice, but they lack sci ship support, have inferior shielding, and thinner hulls, the Bird of Prey is multipurpose-and the easiest ship in the game to kill, Raptors suffer a major handicap in how their turn-pivot is mapped rendering 'book numbers' only a quarter of the story when comparing them to same-or-lower tier Fed vessels in the same class.

Cloak? takes a lot of practice and work to make it an asset, instead of a handicap-some fed players who've been under the misconception that it's a major asset that requires no skill (i.e. overpowered) are going to find out the hard way on their Romulans that it's actually pretty easy to get decloaked and killed by the other side, or brought down to nothing on your hull by simple, expedient things like minefields and warp plasma.

of course, this will be a much, much gentler lesson than if they rolled a KDF toon and spent more than a couple passes in PvP against feds who know what they're doing, because the rommie ships at least have decent hulls. One of the best measures of how good or bad a console is, is how many people in the originating faction use it on a regular basis.

The Emissions Seeker is almost never used by Feds, the Plasmonic Leech is used extensively by KDF players, esp. on vessels like the Bird of Prey-which is, I reiterate, the softest, easiest kill in the game, and comes on a ship that costs MORE than the Emissions seeker does.

The tech-transfer is unbalanced. THAT is the problem.

Varanus T5

Deep Space Science Vessel T5
Damn near identical

Vor'cha Retrofit T5
Assault Cruiser T5
Real close, same shields and boffs and consoles. Assault cruiser has 3k more hull and another device. Vor'cha has the cloak, momentum, and 43% better turning.

As for 'roll a Klingon,' lots of people have and have tried this stuff. I've got 3, have flown all types from Hegh'tas to Vo'quvs to my flagship Fleet Tor'kaht, and they're a hell of a lot easier to use and much more lethal than anything I have Fed side. Like 95% of the game I don't PVP, in my case because I don't care, I don't like aggressive people, and I'd much rather just build stuff. Also means I've never been decloaked and when I use it in story missions it always lets me choose when, where, and how a fight starts, and I enjoy that advantage. Might be unnecessary but its fun, which is my priority. There are in fact people who play KDF side without being Klingon Players.

The tech transfer is unbalanced because the tech distribution is unbalanced. Some people seem to have this pride in seeing themselves as the oppressed and noble underdog in all things, but its just not there. Population yes, cstore and fleets yes. Other than that.....

"You are not a beautiful and unique snowflake. You are the same decaying organic matter as everyone else."
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,205
# 254
05-23-2013, 01:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by reginamala78 View Post

Varanus T5

Deep Space Science Vessel T5
Damn near identical

Vor'cha Retrofit T5
Assault Cruiser T5
Real close, same shields and boffs and consoles. Assault cruiser has 3k more hull and another device. Vor'cha has the cloak, momentum, and 43% better turning.

As for 'roll a Klingon,' lots of people have and have tried this stuff. I've got 3, have flown all types from Hegh'tas to Vo'quvs to my flagship Fleet Tor'kaht, and they're a hell of a lot easier to use and much more lethal than anything I have Fed side. Like 95% of the game I don't PVP, in my case because I don't care, I don't like aggressive people, and I'd much rather just build stuff. Also means I've never been decloaked and when I use it in story missions it always lets me choose when, where, and how a fight starts, and I enjoy that advantage. Might be unnecessary but its fun, which is my priority. There are in fact people who play KDF side without being Klingon Players.

The tech transfer is unbalanced because the tech distribution is unbalanced. Some people seem to have this pride in seeing themselves as the oppressed and noble underdog in all things, but its just not there. Population yes, cstore and fleets yes. Other than that.....

"You are not a beautiful and unique snowflake. You are the same decaying organic matter as everyone else."
How much do you pay for a DSSV? How much do you pay for a Varanus?

Generally, if you're buying the C-store science ship with zen, it's better than the f2p version, isn't it? isn't it??

Varanus: weaker shields, equivalent hull, no cloak, same number of consoles as the FREE Fed science ship. Inferior, get it? it has the same WEAKNESSES, but doesn't share the same strengths. to be equivalent as a science ship you have to dump the repair drone console...

on the vor'cha/assault cruiser, yes, they're about equal-but different. I'll give a point there.

but this topic's about tech-transfer, which in this case, is unidirectional in terms of value-for-investment, of consoles and equipment that really don't help in PvE at all-plas leech doesn't help against Borg in STF, nor against Tholians in the Tholian missions, it only helps in PvP.

ESTorp is useless in PvE and in PvP. Plas Leech is of little to no value in PvE, and pretty darn useful in PvP-moreso on a FED ship, than on a KDF ship because it's easier to spec a FED to make best use of it-even to make OPTIMUM use of it-which is not possible with KDF designs.

Notably, when Nadion Detonator console turned up in a lockbox, it was nerfed. Hard. There were even topics about that-largely because it went from Federation exclusive, to shared-with KDF.

The Point-defense/ams energy weapon setup traded from Fed to Klink was at least close in relative value to the subspace jumper-though again, Feds got the better of that deal, since it's useful both in PvE, and PvP, while the AMS really isn't unless you're facing a lot of carrier spam.

BNW (Bioneural Warhead) went so far as to violate Cryptic's own fluff-text about the weapon being "too inhumane" for Federation use-it was that good a trade UP for the Federation players that it was okay from Dev side to do it.

Isometric charge was, for a while, one of THE most powerful weapons in the KDF arsenal bar none. Now you see it most often on FEDERATION ships...more common with them, than with the originating faction, so that should tell you about what the value of the console is...
"when you're out of Birds of Prey, you're out of ships."

Are you KDF looking for a reason to log in to your KDF Main? consider that every time you do, you're giving the finger to the people that want the KDF as a faction to die out from neglect.

Last edited by patrickngo; 05-23-2013 at 01:22 AM.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,632
# 255
05-23-2013, 01:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickngo View Post
The problem you're missing, Iskandus, is that it BECOMES an OP item-plas leech procs based on hits-five weapons (see: Andorian Escort) hitting multiple times (See: DHC or dual Cannons) is certainly going to have more impact, more quickly, with a longer sustained rate, than three or four DHC's, with more integral punch as well, doing more damage, at less sacrifice.
Likewise, it's EASIER to build and spec a drain build for the Fed than the KDF, as it is easier to spec for insulators to counter a drain build, thanks to the imbalance in science console slots inherent between the factions (re: the ability to equip power insulators-which, as a fed fighting KDF prior to this, you should already know-spec for insulators and your drain issues mostly disappear.) Your numbers on your fed drain build? guess what?

you can't do that on a KDF ship without Aceton, there just isn't hte console space.

as I said, it's OP NOW, because NOW you can actually get the optimum combination to use it-Fedside, an optimum combination you can't GET KDF side. KDF side there's no way to build an opposing layout to resist the effects.
Seeing as there is a maxium stack size it wouldnt matter unless you were in a 1 on 1. And even then that extra forward slot comes at the cost of a rear slo andt it balances out since cannons and turrets generate the same number of hits per second so it would be the same number of applications per second VS a standard 4/3 ship.

And most drain builds I've seen that are actualy effective rely on siphon drones and aceton assimilators. Something feds don't have. Beyond that ES3 is available to everyone who has the science slots for it. and the breen set is still available to all factions.
Actualy reading things pefore posting will make you look smarter than yelling loudly. Reading comprehension is aparently a lost art.

Not everything you see on the internet is true - Abriham Lincoln
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,205
# 256
05-23-2013, 01:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by disposeableh3r0 View Post
Seeing as there is a maxium stack size it wouldnt matter unless you were in a 1 on 1. And even then that extra forward slot comes at the cost of a rear slo andt it balances out since cannons and turrets generate the same number of hits per second so it would be the same number of applications per second VS a standard 4/3 ship.

And most drain builds I've seen that are actualy effective rely on siphon drones and aceton assimilators. Something feds don't have. Beyond that ES3 is available to everyone who has the science slots for it. and the breen set is still available to all factions.
how fast to build the stack up? How long between stacks? if it had a cool-down, I might agree with you, but it's not set up that way. someone being able to max-stack consistently each pass is going to have a HELL of a lot more impact/benefit, than someone cornered into maxing stack once in a while.

Also, you're using "Cannons and turrets" as in: single cannons and turrets, which I generally agree do have the same number of hits per second. DUAL cannons have a higher rate of fire, which means MORE hits per second.

See: More shots fired (ceterus paribus)=more hits, so 4 DC hit fewer times than 5 DC, 4DC+3T hits fewer times (ceterus paribus) than 5DC+2T.

and most KDF players don't fly Raptors into PvP...for a reason-it's a lot harder to stay on a target in a Raptor, than it is in, say, a Fleet Advanced Escort. (it's the Pivot problem again). They fly ships with FEWER guns-aka Bird of Prey or BoP, or they fly ships with more hull and shields (aka Battlecruisers.)

an all-cannons build BC might be able to top your Kumari's Leech performance, assuming both are shooting at relatively slow targets with low situational awareness, but that BoP isn't.

and when it comes to P-Leech, that's usually where a KDF player uses it-because the Bird of Prey doesn't have the punch of a real escort, but is likely to be FACING real escorts-it's a slight edge on a BoP...but on a proper Escort it's ugly, fast...

and that doesn't touch on Science ships which can spec to pull drains KDF ships can't pull without Siphon Drones or Aceton Assimilators.
"when you're out of Birds of Prey, you're out of ships."

Are you KDF looking for a reason to log in to your KDF Main? consider that every time you do, you're giving the finger to the people that want the KDF as a faction to die out from neglect.

Last edited by patrickngo; 05-23-2013 at 01:39 AM.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,632
# 257
05-23-2013, 01:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickngo View Post
how fast to build the stack up? How long between stacks? if it had a cool-down, I might agree with you, but it's not set up that way. someone being able to max-stack consistently each pass is going to have a HELL of a lot more impact/benefit, than someone cornered into maxing stack once in a while.

Also, you're using "Cannons and turrets" as in: single cannons and turrets, which I generally agree do have the same number of hits per second. DUAL cannons have a higher rate of fire, which means MORE hits per second.

See: More shots fired (ceterus paribus)=more hits, so 4 DC hit fewer times than 5 DC, 4DC+3T hits fewer times (ceterus paribus) than 5DC+2T.

and most KDF players don't fly Raptors into PvP...for a reason-it's a lot harder to stay on a target in a Raptor, than it is in, say, a Fleet Advanced Escort. (it's the Pivot problem again). They fly ships with FEWER guns-aka Bird of Prey or BoP, or they fly ships with more hull and shields (aka Battlecruisers.)

an all-cannons build BC might be able to top your Kumari's Leech performance, assuming both are shooting at relatively slow targets with low situational awareness, but that BoP isn't.

and when it comes to P-Leech, that's usually where a KDF player uses it-because the Bird of Prey doesn't have the punch of a real escort, but is likely to be FACING real escorts-it's a slight edge on a BoP...but on a proper Escort it's ugly, fast...

and that doesn't touch on Science ships which can spec to pull drains KDF ships can't pull without Siphon Drones or Aceton Assimilators.
Actualy you can max the stack prety quickly with just 4 beams, and beams are easy to keep on target so keeping that stack maxed is easy.

And the drain on your target is minimal if they bother to put points in insulators. On its own leech doesnt even effect npcs enough to matter.

It really isnt that strong of a console. It takes 6000 skill points just to make effective and those 6000 points are wasted unless energy drain is a large part of your build.

It's a gimmick, that in some cases is effective, like all the other c store consoles. And will really only be a boon to romulans since they have less power to begin with.
Actualy reading things pefore posting will make you look smarter than yelling loudly. Reading comprehension is aparently a lost art.

Not everything you see on the internet is true - Abriham Lincoln
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,205
# 258
05-23-2013, 02:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by disposeableh3r0 View Post
Actualy you can max the stack prety quickly with just 4 beams, and beams are easy to keep on target so keeping that stack maxed is easy.

And the drain on your target is minimal if they bother to put points in insulators. On its own leech doesnt even effect npcs enough to matter.

It really isnt that strong of a console. It takes 6000 skill points just to make effective and those 6000 points are wasted unless energy drain is a large part of your build.

It's a gimmick, that in some cases is effective, like all the other c store consoles. And will really only be a boon to romulans since they have less power to begin with.
Yeah, but you can max it in ONE PASS with the right setup of cannons-which the Kumari has if you don't go beamscort with it. Add in the other lockbox giveaway (that very nearly, but cosmetically doesn't, match the precise effect of the Elite Disruptors) and you have a recipe for easy kills in PvP-as in easier than trying it with KDF equipment.

I feel like we're kind of talking past each other here.
"when you're out of Birds of Prey, you're out of ships."

Are you KDF looking for a reason to log in to your KDF Main? consider that every time you do, you're giving the finger to the people that want the KDF as a faction to die out from neglect.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,632
# 259
05-23-2013, 02:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickngo View Post
Yeah, but you can max it in ONE PASS with the right setup of cannons-which the Kumari has if you don't go beamscort with it. Add in the other lockbox giveaway (that very nearly, but cosmetically doesn't, match the precise effect of the Elite Disruptors) and you have a recipe for easy kills in PvP-as in easier than trying it with KDF equipment.

I feel like we're kind of talking past each other here.
No Im just pointing out that it really isn't as good as people think it is.

And beam ships dont make passes.

The nanite diruptors trade a half disruptor proc (-5 instead of -10) for 2% more shield penetration.

I believe elite disruptors are supposed to reduce shield damage resistance not simply byoass it. So really nanite disruptors have some DEM mixed in and elite disruptors cause your shields take more damage from all sources. I also heard that they still get the -10 damage resistance ontop of the -10 shield damage resistance. But I personaly have not seen them yet.
Actualy reading things pefore posting will make you look smarter than yelling loudly. Reading comprehension is aparently a lost art.

Not everything you see on the internet is true - Abriham Lincoln
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,205
# 260
05-23-2013, 03:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by disposeableh3r0 View Post
No Im just pointing out that it really isn't as good as people think it is.

And beam ships dont make passes.

The nanite diruptors trade a half disruptor proc (-5 instead of -10) for 2% more shield penetration.

I believe elite disruptors are supposed to reduce shield damage resistance not simply byoass it. So really nanite disruptors have some DEM mixed in and elite disruptors cause your shields take more damage from all sources. I also heard that they still get the -10 damage resistance ontop of the -10 shield damage resistance. But I personaly have not seen them yet.
Right, beam-ships don't make passes...

A "Pass" in this case, is that space of time where you hit "Fire" and the weapons cycle with the target in front of you.

Beam ships DO make passes.

Unless they're not moving.

in fact, a Beam ship makes a "Pass" basically if you're flying and firing at a target. That's a 'pass' see?

In the space of time defined above as a "pass" (aka you hit the fire button/spacebar/keybind) your DHC fires multiple times for every time your beam is fired.

Thus, instead of having to make multiple passes with a steady increase in drain that can be broken off if your target manages to break lock (aka uses a placate on you, cloaks, runs out of range, etc.) your drain can be interrupted at less than max.

whereas you pull pretty much full drain off the (DC or DHC)+turrets build every time you hit the 'fire' button-and with less drop in your already-existing energy reserves, which combined with the other half of the proc (aka-bonus energy) means you're holdng at, or above, energy cap...which is a basic buff to your combat power.

See how that works?

I don't have to reduce the target's energy, I just get to use it to buff my own.

With FIVE of 'em going, that translates to it reaching the hard cap of 8 (unbuffed), then getting what amounts to a 2 bonus on the next cycle using CRF1. CRF2 boosts that more at each cycle, so that, as long as I'm firing at a target, my energy doesn't drop...at all.

no drop-off. what would YOU do with no drop-off?

Most 'typical' builds don't go all DHC though-so figure 4 DHC on our theoretical Kumari, plus a "Finisher" such as a DBB+BO2/3 where energy levels actually MATTER, and assume for ****s and giggles we add in a warp-core that runs W->S or W->Aux and A2B on the science doff.

Or maybe W->E.

Suppose that might be an interesting situation? Might that even have a significant impact on performance?

hmm? Hypothetically, of course.
"when you're out of Birds of Prey, you're out of ships."

Are you KDF looking for a reason to log in to your KDF Main? consider that every time you do, you're giving the finger to the people that want the KDF as a faction to die out from neglect.

Last edited by patrickngo; 05-23-2013 at 03:19 AM.
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