Cryptic Studios Team
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 57
# 41
06-17-2013, 04:16 PM
There is some history to this option that will hopefully make the reasons for its removal more clear.

This option was originally added for Champions Online when, during the development of the On Alert update, the Star Trek Online shoulder camera behavior was accidentally added to Champions. While our initial action was to remove the shoulder camera from Champions, some players expressed that they liked it. For Champions Online, making the shoulder camera an option ended up being trivial, so we added it for that game.

Due to the nature of our options code, this option also unintentionally made it to the options screen of Star Trek Online back in Season 6.

The problem is that the shoulder camera is a built-in part of the Star Trek Online camera code. While a player could temporarily turn the shoulder camera off, the camera code would merely turn the shoulder camera back on whenever it detected that the zoom level was close enough that it needed to enable the shoulder camera, effectively making the player set option entirely useless. This is a hard-coded part of Star Trek Online's camera system, and it cannot be disabled without a rework of the camera code.

Typically speaking, we don't remove functional options from the game. This was an option that was never intended for Star Trek Online, and did not work in Star Trek Online's camera code. For that reason, it was removed.

Last edited by flyingtarg; 06-17-2013 at 04:24 PM.
Commander
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 287
# 42
06-18-2013, 12:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyingtarg View Post
The problem is that the shoulder camera is a built-in part of the Star Trek Online camera code. While a player could temporarily turn the shoulder camera off, the camera code would merely turn the shoulder camera back on whenever it detected that the zoom level was close enough that it needed to enable the shoulder camera, effectively making the player set option entirely useless. This is a hard-coded part of Star Trek Online's camera system, and it cannot be disabled without a rework of the camera code.

Typically speaking, we don't remove functional options from the game. This was an option that was never intended for Star Trek Online, and did not work in Star Trek Online's camera code. For that reason, it was removed.
Except, that, in practice, that is not what happened. With the option set to disable shoulder-cam, the cameras DID NOT move to the side when we scrolled in closer, and when we scrolled in all the way, behind/above the head, one more scroll-in with the wheel, put us in first-person view.

Whatever the reasons for that having found its way into STO in the first place, the behavior worked BEAUTIFULLY as it stood.

The only problem was the option setting not saving itself.

You are exaggerating the 'problem' with keeping that view in. Since we could disable it, even temporarily, it worked without a 'rework of the camera code', and since you are the coders to begin with? "hard-coded" is meaningless.

Putting a workaround that would go through the routine to reset the shoulder-cam to off, the same routine that was used when we changed the option manually, to disable the shoulder-cam, isn't as problematic as you make it out to be.

You have plenty of people who play STO and read these forums that have some experience with dealing with coding issues, and your reasoning for removing the non-shoulder-cam/first-person view that we have enjoyed and have come to depend on, adding to our enjoyment of being in STO in the first place, falls flat.

It _was_ a functional option, albeit one that had an option setting that wasn't persistent, which isn't a big issue to resolve and make it persistent.

And, you removed the functional option, rather than make the setting persistent.

The functionality itself, worked perfectly. Removing it, and leaving us with what we have left, makes me loathe ground combat.

Sorry, but your excuses do not make any logical sense, and from my past coding experience, it doesn't make sense there either.

Please go back to your coders, and instruct them to re-insert the code, and address the non-saving option setting, properly.

-- Smoov

Last edited by smoovious; 06-18-2013 at 12:36 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,500
# 43
06-18-2013, 03:25 AM
there were 2 things wrong with the first person view

#1 it worked while you were in space as the ship, which was NOT a bad thing, you could do beautiful Screenshots that way without YOUR Ship always hanging in the center that way.
It was not useful for gameplay itself though.

#2 the option itself did not STICK.
restart the client, you are back in shoulder view, or go back into the menu after you are in first person view and you could not go back to third person view without restarting the client.

that seems to me NOT like a camera code issue, but like a UI code issue (it was not intended for STO so it was not set up properly), we had options that didn't STICK before (like the OnMouseOver option that is regularly broken with new branch updates).



my vote: +1 bring back first person view!
but next time a bit more functional please.

...and it would be uber epic to see the gun you are using on the screen while in FPS view (the character AND weapon did turn invisible while in FPS view).


Also i alway am zoomed out enough for the character to be centered in the screen, it was NICE to be able to zoom in more without the character getting pushed to the left of the screen.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 157
# 44
06-18-2013, 03:42 AM
[quote=alaerick;10358421]Exactly my reaction. Flying a ship from behind it is like wtf.. where's my cockpit view? I want to FLY the ship not be some weird thing behind it. If I wanted 3rd person flying mode I'd play EVE-O instead.[/QUOTE
the game engine itself cant support a cockpit view and it wouldnt work because things would happen in a ship would take a long time to program and dan stahl said that remodelling ships is hard will not likely do it again.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,500
# 45
06-18-2013, 03:44 AM
[quote=starfleetownsall;10894111]
Quote:
Originally Posted by alaerick View Post
Exactly my reaction. Flying a ship from behind it is like wtf.. where's my cockpit view? I want to FLY the ship not be some weird thing behind it. If I wanted 3rd person flying mode I'd play EVE-O instead.[/QUOTE
the game engine itself cant support a cockpit view and it wouldnt work because things would happen in a ship would take a long time to program and dan stahl said that remodelling ships is hard will not likely do it again.
you are a mile off topic for this thread, we are talking about a first person view that was IN THE GAME already and got removed.

Nobody is talking about Bridge Commander / Bridge View stuff...
Captain
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 1,204
# 46
06-18-2013, 11:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyingtarg View Post
There is some history to this option that will hopefully make the reasons for its removal more clear.

This option was originally added for Champions Online when, during the development of the On Alert update, the Star Trek Online shoulder camera behavior was accidentally added to Champions. While our initial action was to remove the shoulder camera from Champions, some players expressed that they liked it. For Champions Online, making the shoulder camera an option ended up being trivial, so we added it for that game.

Due to the nature of our options code, this option also unintentionally made it to the options screen of Star Trek Online back in Season 6.

The problem is that the shoulder camera is a built-in part of the Star Trek Online camera code. While a player could temporarily turn the shoulder camera off, the camera code would merely turn the shoulder camera back on whenever it detected that the zoom level was close enough that it needed to enable the shoulder camera, effectively making the player set option entirely useless. This is a hard-coded part of Star Trek Online's camera system, and it cannot be disabled without a rework of the camera code.

Typically speaking, we don't remove functional options from the game. This was an option that was never intended for Star Trek Online, and did not work in Star Trek Online's camera code. For that reason, it was removed.

Thank you for a response to this isssue. Now what Smoovius stated was correct. The option did not revert until you loaded a new area not the way you describe by zooming in too close. Zooming in too close and the characters head would fill the screen and one wheel click more and you were in first person mode.

Now what you state about not removing features Is great but you did remove a feature and one that many players prefer and us on the forums is but a small portion of those considering most just dont complain and many dont know about the forums.

It may not have been intended but it was there! intended or not it was a working feature that was a good feature. It did not give us extra dilithium or storage. All it did was give us an option to use another point of view! More options for things like that are what you developers should be working on adding anyway and I am sure you are but an accidental added feature should have been considered good fortune for Cryptic since they don't have to do the whole code to make it happen. Sometimes an accident is a good thing and this was a good thing! If you put it back the way it was but change the option to Temporarily disable over the shoulder then that would be hundreds of times better than the lack of any option we have now.

Furthermore IF the option was entirely useless as you say you would have recieved many more bug reports on it aside from the reverting everytime you change zones and most likely have removed it then just to shut the players up about it. Doing it now was plain and simply a bad choice to make because many were used to it bugs and all.

*edit,
Hard coded? Does Cryptic not have the source code to STO? Hard coded is like the number of animations that can be used on player characetrs in Skyrim but animations can be modified through the creation kit but the number cannot be changed because our version of the CK had the ability stripped out. Bethesda can change it in a couple minutes at most either at the code level or through their version of the CK. We may be players but we are not stupid and many have experiance in coding or game design as well. Like i can fix many many errors on the 3d models you people have like the bad clipping on the romulan skirt when running. That one was an amature mistake to tell the truth.

Last edited by jetwtf; 06-18-2013 at 11:29 PM.
Commander
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 287
# 47
06-19-2013, 09:49 PM
Yeah, I was a bit flabbergasted at the 'hard-coded' card being played...

That card works for a content creator who has to work within the limits of the environment he doesn't have access to.

Not to the people who code that environment themselves.

-- Smoov
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 135
# 48
06-20-2013, 07:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyingtarg View Post
There is some history to this option that will hopefully make the reasons for its removal more clear.

This option was originally added for Champions Online when, during the development of the On Alert update, the Star Trek Online shoulder camera behavior was accidentally added to Champions. While our initial action was to remove the shoulder camera from Champions, some players expressed that they liked it. For Champions Online, making the shoulder camera an option ended up being trivial, so we added it for that game.

Due to the nature of our options code, this option also unintentionally made it to the options screen of Star Trek Online back in Season 6.

The problem is that the shoulder camera is a built-in part of the Star Trek Online camera code. While a player could temporarily turn the shoulder camera off, the camera code would merely turn the shoulder camera back on whenever it detected that the zoom level was close enough that it needed to enable the shoulder camera, effectively making the player set option entirely useless. This is a hard-coded part of Star Trek Online's camera system, and it cannot be disabled without a rework of the camera code.

Typically speaking, we don't remove functional options from the game. This was an option that was never intended for Star Trek Online, and did not work in Star Trek Online's camera code. For that reason, it was removed.
Unacceptable reason. As it stands I have logged maybe half a dozen hours total to the game since it was vanished from my settings. I simply cannot get in to playing it anymore in it's current form. Eg, You broke it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by starfleetownsall View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by alaerick View Post
Exactly my reaction. Flying a ship from behind it is like wtf.. where's my cockpit view? I want to FLY the ship not be some weird thing behind it. If I wanted 3rd person flying mode I'd play EVE-O instead.
the game engine itself cant support a cockpit view and it wouldnt work because things would happen in a ship would take a long time to program and dan stahl said that remodelling ships is hard will not likely do it again.
I created this thread do not tell me what it is about. I would love a bridge view but this is about the first person mode (NO VISIBLE SHIP) option that vanished. Furthermore the forcing of over the shoulder cam mode on everyone else who likes ground combat. I always played both areas in first person mode unless I needed to melee attack something in which case I simply scrolled backward with my mouse wheel to proceed bashing it to pieces then scrolled back in when I was done and ready to run and gun again.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 151
# 49
06-20-2013, 11:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyingtarg View Post
There is some history to this option that will hopefully make the reasons for its removal more clear.

This option was originally added for Champions Online when, during the development of the On Alert update, the Star Trek Online shoulder camera behavior was accidentally added to Champions. While our initial action was to remove the shoulder camera from Champions, some players expressed that they liked it. For Champions Online, making the shoulder camera an option ended up being trivial, so we added it for that game.

Due to the nature of our options code, this option also unintentionally made it to the options screen of Star Trek Online back in Season 6.

The problem is that the shoulder camera is a built-in part of the Star Trek Online camera code. While a player could temporarily turn the shoulder camera off, the camera code would merely turn the shoulder camera back on whenever it detected that the zoom level was close enough that it needed to enable the shoulder camera, effectively making the player set option entirely useless. This is a hard-coded part of Star Trek Online's camera system, and it cannot be disabled without a rework of the camera code.

Typically speaking, we don't remove functional options from the game. This was an option that was never intended for Star Trek Online, and did not work in Star Trek Online's camera code. For that reason, it was removed.
So what you're saying is this:

Champions Online:
- Camera option is accidentally added.
- Players say they like it.
- It's kept.

Star Trek Onine:
- Camera option is accidentally added.
- Players say they like it.
- It's removed.
Captain
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 1,204
# 50
06-20-2013, 11:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lancemeszaros View Post
So what you're saying is this:

Champions Online:
- Camera option is accidentally added.
- Players say they like it.
- It's kept.

Star Trek Onine:
- Camera option is accidentally added.
- Players say they like it.
- It's removed.
That looks about right and kinda insulting if you ask me.
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