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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 178
# 21
07-02-2013, 11:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by marc8219 View Post
Can you please spend less time "data mining" and more time reading the forums and working on your builds instead? I see you post complaining on forums a lot so targeted you first when I saw you and you pop pretty easily. You might be able to give better opionions on how to improve pvp if you improve your own builds first then can base your opions on balance after using decent builds.
^This x1000.

He posted a video in another thread (which has since been locked/deleted) was was purportedly showing him getting one-shot'd. It's clear he has no idea how to actually play. During the 30 seconds or so that I saw, I saw him doing so much wrong that frankly, I'm surprised he even manages in PvE. He had 4 team abilities, but didn't know when to use them. He failed to use TT when he was being hit with incoming fire. Additionally, he full impulsed right into a group of enemies (over shooting them and not having any weapon power when he did slow down,) as well as having a static camera angle. Uhmari, this is one of the reasons why no one in the other thread could take your seriously-you don't know the game. How can you even think about improving it when you don't understand the mechanics?
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,217
# 22
07-02-2013, 11:26 AM
I am not sure he is going to answer anyone unless they agree with him. This thread and OHKO thread completely backfired on him. He really believes New players who do not want to learn the game through study should be almost as good as veteran players and that all the veteran players are evil tyrants.

He created these two threads in response to the deleted thread, because he believed that eeveryone who answered would agree with him.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 178
# 23
07-02-2013, 11:31 AM
I know. I read through his OHKO thread. I even posted a few times, but he ignored most of what I said. Typical, really. Whats really funny/sad is that a lot of us would have no problem helping him out with his build and tactics, but he doesn't want to listen, as you know/have pointed out.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,395
# 24
07-02-2013, 11:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zaphod042 View Post
As a lvl 15 newb, this question is a strange one. I assume this is not the case, but the question gives me a lovely feeling that that I would not be welcomed in PVP if I am not good enough. We all have to learn at some point and we are all newbs at some point as well.

From my brief 3 days of experience, there is a lot to learn! Only just finding things out like Duty officers for instance.. For example I can upgrade my duty officers and gain XP. Thus I might level to 50 quickly. This means I may have a high lvl character, but my gear would be terrible and I still would have no other experience other than knowing how to upgrade duty officers! (Which I have yet to do!).

So I would say its all about experience and skill and has nothing to do with level.
Some of us, in spite of ranking 'middle' in every game, still consider ourselves "Newbs"-there is always more to learn, tricks you don't know, builds you haven't considered out there.

As for the attitude: I never felt distinctly unwelcome in any match, regardless of how well or poorly I did. This community is, on the whole, far less condemning than, say, STO's PvE community where flaming and hate-spew are the 'Average' and people will ditch an instance just by looking at your gear and seeing nothing 'rep' or 'C-store' on your ship (after flaming you for being in 'their' Elite instance!)

yes, in PvP, if you are new to it, you will spend a lot of time in respawn-but so do Vet players with maxed gear more often than not.

"...cause the name of the game,
is be hit and hit back!
"
-Warren Zevon, "Boom Boom Mancini"

Like any competitive game out there, the only way you GET good, is to play the game. Gear doesn't do it all for you in PvP, not even really good or really broken gear. The way you get good is to play, and everyone who's even a little bit good knows this to be true.
"when you're out of Birds of Prey, you're out of ships."
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,409
# 25
07-02-2013, 11:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickngo View Post
Some of us, in spite of ranking 'middle' in every game, still consider ourselves "Newbs"-there is always more to learn, tricks you don't know, builds you haven't considered out there.
right!

i used to be a great science player (rusty at the moment) and create all sorts of builds, but the one build i could never master was the power drain build. no matter what i did, i just couldnt get the hang of it.



and stick me in anything except some sort of sci ship or a gal-x and ill die like anyone else lol.

(note, the gal x is included because i die once and i can cloak and hide like a federation coward hehehe)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mancom View Post
Frankly, I think the only sound advice that one can give new players at this time is to stay away from PVP in STO.
Science pvp at its best-http://www.youtube.com/user/matteo716
Do you even Science Bro?
Commander
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 374
# 26
07-02-2013, 12:09 PM
First lemme get a few things out of the way, as I know how those in power and the borderline trolls operate on the forums. The #1 tactic to discredit someone here is to criticize their knowledge of the game and/or their "build", let me state the following in advance; I have at least 5 (more counting low level) toons totally or semi-dedicated to PvP each with many good ships. In fact, I no longer build ANYTHING for PvE unless it's exclusively for leveling purposes. Any decent PvP build is easily a good PvE build with a few console (& maybe 2 weapon) swaps. My builds range from poor (which get scrapped and rebuilt), to moderately excellent (and I have every knowledge of what keeps me from exceeding that level). I have sci/tac/eng/ability specific/ship specific/etc builds so I'm not limited in my knowledge. I watch oPvP and run/moderate a variety of channels with plenty of ppl to ask questions. I read the forums, study builds, new items ...well I think you get the picture. Secondly, I do not fully endorse all of OPs ideas, I do, however appreciate his "crusade" to improve PvP, or as I see it "FIX" it. Finally, I have ALOT of time invested playing the game, I mean alot. That being said...

Quote:
Originally Posted by uhmari View Post
Please answer the following, Please be serious as i am data-mining from the pvp
population to correct future suggestions for revisions to the game. Your opinion
is important! so please take it seriously!


At what level, do you think new players should differ from veterens?

At what % Do you think the new players should be out dps'd,healed, or tanked by a vet? (like scores at the end of the game etc) Please provide figures. (100kvs 2.5m as example)

Do you think that limited knowledge of pvp should allow the player to be able to do pvp at all? Or do you think its required to read/study to do it?
I don't think I fully understand the question here. Does level refer to to actual level? (Lt Cmdr vs VA or lvl 31 v lvl 46? for ex) or to SKILL level? Or something else? So far, I'd say in ANY case a higher "level" player should/would be better. How much better is the real issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by antoniosalieri View Post
...
Top level pvpers do nothing but read patch notes and chats ect ect ect.
....
And that's really the problem with PvP. In game knowledge counts for squat. Learning everything to be learned in game is pretty much PvP 101, getting good at it REQUIRES outside reference. Testing with parsers, reading about what works and what doesn't and ofc the ever popular "secret" builds mechanics that give a distinct advantage. You call BS? play some low level PvP without all the spam, stacked passives, and broken equipment/doffs, and you'll see a much more LEVEL playing field where a moderately, well built ship (yes even a dinky sci), can take out 2-3 escorts or cruisers without much issue based solely on build and skill. By build I mean using standard equipment that works properly by skill I mean using flying and abilities to win, not 100k crits that you get from some glitched combination of DoFFs/Rep equipment/BoFF stacking. And don't tell me ALL low level PvPers are newbs. You can tell who is and who isn't. Lets face it, we most all have alts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by uhmari View Post
What conditions would you seperate a newb from a vet upon?

Lets say they were something the game had to search for.
Please explain what that/those mechanic(s) would
If you mean in general, there is no way to determine by a search unless it would be by their total /played time by all alts. For PvP, it could easily be a rating system (like chess uses) where beating a more skilled player(s) significantly increases your rating while beating a lower one barely improves it. (In fact in chess, if a 2200 rated player beats a 1500 rated, his score will actually go DOWN, but if the 1500 wins, his score might go up by 200!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by pulserazor View Post
the disperity comes not from experience or gear, or skill, it is from social connections. If you want to get good at pvp, hook up with a good fleet. They will teach you
Again, that's not a solution to the problem, it's a work-a-round. Hoping to make friends who teach you secrets is not what Star Trek is about. You could know the whole game inside and out yet it means nothing if you aren't "taught" how to make it viable for PvP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by newreman1 View Post
Polls are not allowed.

Exploiting game mechanics seems to be the biggest spread in success.
^that^ Granted, I don't blame people for doing it, it's just a fact.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mewmaster101 View Post
actually, this is one of the friendliest communities i have seen, most people are very wiling to help if you ask. This guy just likes stirring up trouble.
Friendly as long as you are part of it. PvP is "player vs player", not "community members vs non-community members". Too much buddy system, not enough actual skill.

Quote:
Originally Posted by marc8219 View Post
Can you please spend less time "data mining" and more time reading the forums and working on your builds instead? I see you post complaining on forums a lot so targeted you first when I saw you and you pop pretty easily. You might be able to give better opionions on how to improve pvp if you improve your own builds first then can base your opions on balance after using decent builds.
Lol, he wants to make it where you don't have to read forums non-stop to at least play semi-competitive PvP on some level. And/or allow non pros to compete without getting stomped by premades, thereby frustrating them to stay away. And LEAVE HIS BUILDS OUT OF THIS. It grows tiresome. Even if he's PvP'd only once, he can see the system is borked. Even if you "fix" his ship for him, he's likely to have the same opinion, as I do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by doffingcomrade View Post
What do I think? Well, I think that in a truly deep and engaging game, veteran players should be as gods, untouchable by mere noobs, possessing deep knowledge and experience that makes them so. Otherwise the game is shallow and unengaging, as you quickly hit a cap and realize there's no real way you can improve. The depth of a game is, after all, defined as the separation between the worst and the best. A completely shallow game, such as "flip a coin to see who wins", has absolutely no depth at all, and is thus completely pointless to play.

Also, you need to stop trying to "improve" a game that you don't actually understand and don't actually have the authority to alter, anyway.
Spoken like a true god. New players have about 0 chance of ever catching up to the Vets. So it's rly, 1st come, 1st serve? And btw... he's not "improving" anything, he's (hopefully) "fixing" it.

Go ahead, nitpick over my statements and disagree, it won't change anything as to the general 99% of players opinions to PvP. Don't get me wrong, I love PvP, it's actually the only reason I play anymore. Only challenge left. But I also see things that are clearly making it fun for only a handful of people.

If your post is anything like, "I have a sandwich so you can't be starving" it's time to rethink posting. ~thlaylierah
So realistically, you only need to have the exact number of doffs that you need. ~leadme2kirk
Commander
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 374
# 27
07-02-2013, 12:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tcostik View Post
I know. I read through his OHKO thread. I even posted a few times, but he ignored most of what I said. Typical, really. Whats really funny/sad is that a lot of us would have no problem helping him out with his build and tactics, but he doesn't want to listen, as you know/have pointed out.
Can you help me with my builds/tactics? Maybe/maybe not. Maybe I could help YOU. Doesn't matter, put me in a tricked out bug-ship and teach me how to get a 65-1 kill ratio and I'd still agree PvP is EXTREMELY imbalanced. Put me in a Miranda class that can't kill an advanced pet and it wouldn't matter either. This has NOTHING to do with how "good" anyone's "build" is. Attacking someones ability does not negate their point and maybe that's why he's ignoring you...?

If your post is anything like, "I have a sandwich so you can't be starving" it's time to rethink posting. ~thlaylierah
So realistically, you only need to have the exact number of doffs that you need. ~leadme2kirk
Captain
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 858
# 28
07-02-2013, 12:21 PM
Well said,


By the difference of level i am talking about skill.

In general with your opening statements i agree, the trolls are only interested in keeping their Silly 1 shot Spam of


"lets kill the newbs, 1 shot them, its ok, because they are to stupid to know better".

Well, Like i told them, I will rise the issue in the community to such a point that it will get fixed (God willing).

This has started taking place, people are recognizing widely and openly there is problems with pvp As a developer of (other games) I can tell you coming in this game and looking at stuff, It needs lots of work.


There is minor problems with the way items are equipped, The stacking etc.

To me one of the best moves in this game is to make it so that modules dont stack anymore. That will fix a lot of problems, and balance out ship performance. Personally i'd like to see the whole lay out of items redone. I am working on a proposal for this.


But in general the problems from pvp come from the lack of control on a skill system.


What i am trying to understand is the communities view on what is acceptable, and whats not according to the standard (And i dont include the trolls opinions in my conclusions, because they are only interested in 1 thing, staying on top to epeen.

This thread was excellent proof to discredit their false claims that <5 second skills dont exist in the game.

I think alpha strike should play a major role int he game, but i dont think it should be on the level that you 1 shot someone. It's not a First person shooter, if you want to 1 shot people, go play a FPS game.

Imo, Death rates should last something like 60-180 seconds. maybe in extreme cases, 45s to 240 seconds.


This is why i am asking about one shots, and peoples opinions on what level the difference should be. So ican conclude on what stats on weapons revisions im doing.
Captain
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 858
# 29
07-02-2013, 12:23 PM
Quote:
Can you help me with my builds/tactics? Maybe/maybe not. Maybe I could help YOU. Doesn't matter, put me in a tricked out bug-ship and teach me how to get a 65-1 kill ratio and I'd still agree PvP is EXTREMELY imbalanced. Put me in a Miranda class that can't kill an advanced pet and it wouldn't matter either. This has NOTHING to do with how "good" anyone's "build" is. Attacking someones ability does not negate their point and maybe that's why he's ignoring you...?

Right? this is exactly my point.


And all of this is happening because the skill system allows Broken rates. To much spam in this game. Spam of Items (% Bonus's from them) Spam of skills, etc.

Nerf these, and you will vastly improve the system


Its not fair for new players to have to "do research" or "get feedback" in order to do pvp.
they should learn the mechanics while leveling. Example, they should learn that when an npc tractor beams them, that you use X skill to get out.

And all methods of leveling should include all types of CC, and even concepts of heavy alpha, or raw dps so they can fundamentally learn how to deal with it.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,465
# 30
07-02-2013, 12:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by omegashinzon View Post
Can you help me with my builds/tactics? Maybe/maybe not. Maybe I could help YOU. Doesn't matter, put me in a tricked out bug-ship and teach me how to get a 65-1 kill ratio and I'd still agree PvP is EXTREMELY imbalanced. Put me in a Miranda class that can't kill an advanced pet and it wouldn't matter either. This has NOTHING to do with how "good" anyone's "build" is. Attacking someones ability does not negate their point and maybe that's why he's ignoring you...?
For starters, drop the technicolor act. It's incredibly annoying.

Secondly, Uhmari has a habit of making serious and repeated factual, conceptual and linguistic errors in nearly every point he tries to make. The people he's "ignoring" are those who challenge his completely unfounded assumptions, and point out just how incorrect his facts and reasoning are.

Case in point: two pages plus of people disagreeing vehemently with him, yet he magically appears the moment someone with the slightest inkling of concurrence appears.

Last edited by stirling191; 07-02-2013 at 12:26 PM.
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