Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 80
# 11
07-10-2013, 07:46 PM
I wonder if anybody can verify what is being suggested above is correct. If the rep passives don't stack why would anyone bother. Why would I bother with all the rep grinds?
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 5,367
# 12
07-10-2013, 11:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mozoha View Post
I wonder if anybody can verify what is being suggested above is correct. If the rep passives don't stack why would anyone bother. Why would I bother with all the rep grinds?
Power creep.

Nukara rep is a pain to deal with, but even if you don't want to do it, others will, which means that they will have an advantage over you. People WANT to stay competitive, and thus they will grit their teeth and grind it out achingly.

You can get away with not doing Nukara rep (at least not for the passives, that's for sure, gear is up to you). But Romulan and Omega rep...they're a LOT more useful, both in gear and passives.

Same thing for fleet stuff. Between having it and not having it, can make a big difference. Usually. Particularly the elite space shields, warp cores, engy and sci consoles are the bigger things. Weapons, engines, deflectors, etc, not as much.

Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,507
# 13
07-11-2013, 01:59 AM
Lol what about elite fleet disruptors, mimey?? Uber epeeness .
Reality is WAR.

| KDF Fleet: KHG Klingon Honor Guard |
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 12,227
# 14
07-11-2013, 08:36 AM
Please correct the following if my understanding is incorrect.

The diminishing returns on putting points into a skill is not to be confused with the actual points in a skill.

Remember...

1-3 is +18 per point.
4-6 is +10 per point.
7-9 is +5 per point.

It's difficult to discuss, because there's skill and there's skill - lol. Heck, there's also skill (can't forget how much a skill costs).

Skill Level?
Skill Bonus?
Skill Point Cost?

Skill Level has diminishing returns. You get -8 Skill Bonus per Skill Level from 4-6 than you did 1-3. You get -5 Skill Bonus per Skill Level from 7-9 than you did 4-6.

However, each "point" of Skill Bonus does not have diminishing returns.

4 Skill Levels shows diminishing returns because unlike 1-3, where you went 18-36-54, with 4 you're going to 64. Likewise, 7 shows DR because unlike 4-6, where you went 64-74-84, with 7 you're going to 89.

200 skill bonus is twice the benefit of 100. 150 twice 75, etc, etc, etc.

Thus, there is no DR with the T4.
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder - R'ebel, Romulan, Haakona
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba - Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethean, M.Qin
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,119
# 15
07-11-2013, 08:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by deokkent View Post
I could be wrong but I think after speccing, extra points have diminutive returns. It's very probably that the t4 passive gives you a very small bonus to offense/defense performance if you're already fully specc'ed.

I'm thinking that t4 passive is good for min maxer that want to spec 5 or 4 points in weapons training (just an example), so they can have extra point to do something else new. Then again, I haven't done any of the calculations but my gut + my year old experience tinkering with builds tell me it is so.
I don't understand what you're trying to get at.

Points in skill do not suffer from diminishing returns. It's as you put more points in skills that the amount you get per skill is diminished.

All skills max out at 99 (without gear or passives). But, each skill point does not give you 11 points in that skill. As was pointed out in a previous post.

Think of points from gear as an extra skill point. With the T4 Nukura ability, the most someone could get from it is 26 points. That is a significant amount of skill points. It's just that skills do not give you a huge bonus to your damage, power level, resistance, etc when it's maxed out by skill points.
Commander
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 486
# 16
07-11-2013, 08:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by renimalt View Post
Numbers-wise, here's how it breaks down. Numbers taken from here.

Assume that you have 100 power in Aux:

Defense:
+20 Shield Performance = +2 shield power level
+20 Structural Integrity = +6% hull hp (calculated from base hull hp)
+20 Hull Plating = ~+2.5% energy resist (subject to diminishing returns)

Offense:
+20 Weapons Training = +5% damage with both energy and projectile weapons (calculated from base damage)
+20 Energy Weapons = +5% damage with energy weapons
+20 Projectile Weapons = +5% damage with projectiles
(Combine these, and it's +10% damage to both energy and projectile weapons.)

I don't think I need to say this, but the offensive t4 rep option is by far the better one for the vast majority of ships.
You might be right theoretically and number wise renim, but think about it. Healers/tanks often have Aux alot higher, damage dealers usually dont run aux high at all, and even doing so will severely compromise their speed/shield tanking/regen etc

So I think eventually they are pretty equal and they might have taken this into consideration.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,119
# 17
07-11-2013, 08:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mozoha View Post
I wonder if anybody can verify what is being suggested above is correct. If the rep passives don't stack why would anyone bother. Why would I bother with all the rep grinds?
Efficiency. Think of it like modifying your car for better performance. Will it make THAT much of a difference driving to work? Probably not. But, if you're obsessed with getting the best efficiency that you can, why not do it anyways?

I try to get as much damage as I can. The extra 2.5% bleedthrough will allow me to get just a little bit more damage on my target than if I didn't have it. Same with the T4 Omega damage passive. Even if I only did 77k damage kinetic damage from this passive in 1.5 million damage. When I had the plasma DOT embassy console, that only gave me 22k extra damage in the 1.5 million total damage I did in one round. It isn't much, but I kept it anyways up until they announced the new Fleet warp cores.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,119
# 18
07-11-2013, 08:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by masterkeychnk5 View Post
You might be right theoretically and number wise renim, but think about it. Healers/tanks often have Aux alot higher, damage dealers usually dont run aux high at all, and even doing so will severely compromise their speed/shield tanking/regen etc

So I think eventually they are pretty equal and they might have taken this into consideration.
That may be true before, but Plasmonic Leech is a game changer for a lot of builds. It's no longer Sci ships with Energy Siphon that can get near all maxed subsystem power.

In anticipation for the AMP modifier on the Elite Fleet Warp Cores, I have adjusted my power levels that I have all 4 subsystems above 75 with Plasmonic Leech. That's, I think, 13.2% increase to my damage. With my Aux at 78, I'm going to get 15.6+ to my energy and weapon training. 15.6 versus 26 (130 Aux) isn't too much of a difference. And I have no points in Aux Performance in my skills.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,507
# 19
07-11-2013, 09:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mozoha View Post
I wonder if anybody can verify what is being suggested above is correct. If the rep passives don't stack why would anyone bother. Why would I bother with all the rep grinds?
One word: store. You might want to experiment with different builds, maybe you could come up with a nicely geared starship to blast through PvE/PvP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
Please correct the following if my understanding is incorrect.

The diminishing returns on putting points into a skill is not to be confused with the actual points in a skill.

Remember...

1-3 is +18 per point.
4-6 is +10 per point.
7-9 is +5 per point.

It's difficult to discuss, because there's skill and there's skill - lol. Heck, there's also skill (can't forget how much a skill costs).

Skill Level?
Skill Bonus?
Skill Point Cost?

Skill Level has diminishing returns. You get -8 Skill Bonus per Skill Level from 4-6 than you did 1-3. You get -5 Skill Bonus per Skill Level from 7-9 than you did 4-6.

However, each "point" of Skill Bonus does not have diminishing returns.

4 Skill Levels shows diminishing returns because unlike 1-3, where you went 18-36-54, with 4 you're going to 64. Likewise, 7 shows DR because unlike 4-6, where you went 64-74-84, with 7 you're going to 89.

200 skill bonus is twice the benefit of 100. 150 twice 75, etc, etc, etc.

Thus, there is no DR with the T4.
When I'm talking about diminishing returns, I'm formulating my opinion in accordance to this spreadsheet. I've been consulting it for months now and I've yet to notice anything that would indicate it has erroneous information. Many of the skill points invested past 6 have very small effects in ship performance, some with very miniscule bonuses that could ultimately prove insignificant in gaming.

(Disclaimer: I've only done a few builds centered on pure tactical escort dpsing and pure space magic sciencing; I have not tested all possible builds so I don't want to generalize but logistically speaking the effects of the skill points should be universal. This post is strictly a personal opinion and opinions can be wrong quite often.)

For instance, let's take a look at the energy weapons skill and how it affects beam dmg; 6 points at 291 dmg vs 9 points at 299 dmg. Is that a 3% boost? It reminds me of the omega amplifier (t4 omega passive), everyone knows how embarrassingly laughable it is in game.

Again I could be wrong and splitting hairs with this one. If you plan to grind for nukara reputation, you're much better off figuring how much of the bonus in starship skill you get from t4 passive then fill up the rest until you have something equivalent to 6 points in the corresponding starship skill.
Reality is WAR.

| KDF Fleet: KHG Klingon Honor Guard |

Last edited by deokkent; 07-11-2013 at 09:24 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 12,227
# 20
07-11-2013, 09:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by deokkent View Post
When I'm talking about diminishing returns, I'm formulating my opinion in accordance to this spreadsheet. I've been consulting it for months now and I've yet to notice anything that would indicate it has erroneous information. Many of the skill points invested past 6 have very small effects in ship performance, some with very miniscule bonuses that could ultimately prove insignificant in gaming. For instance, let's take a look at the energy weapons skill and how it affects beam dmg; 6 points at 291 dmg vs 9 points at 299 dmg. Is that a 3% boost? It reminds me of the omega amplifier (t4 omega passive), everyone knows how embarrassingly laughable it is in game.
But that's kind of the point of what my post was saying. I think most folks have that bookmarked.

Look at the numbers up there under the numbers you mentioned.

6 is 84.
9 is 99.

There is DR going from 6 to 9, because each of those only provides +5. 1-3 provides +18, 4-6 provides +10, and 7-9 provides +5.

So you look at Energy Weapons Training...each "pt" provides 0.5 damage in the example given there.

2 skill levels is 36 pts... base is 249, 2 is 267 (+18 dmg, 0.5 x 36).
8 skill levels is 94 pts... base is 249, 8 is 296 (+47 dmg, 0.5 x 94).

That 0.5 per pt remains the same. If you had 150 pts in EWT, with the base damage of 249 - your damage would be 324 (0.5 x 150, +75 dmg).

The DR arises because you go from getting +18 per level to +10 per level to 10 +5 per level...but the value for each point given is the same.
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder - R'ebel, Romulan, Haakona
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba - Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethean, M.Qin
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:27 PM.