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# 11
07-11-2013, 01:50 PM
DHCs deal front loaded damage, which is most effective. DCs deal pressure damage with nill effectiveness, and suck they power they are useing for longer periods, making other weapons weaker around them. beam arrays are the worse offenders of this
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordlalo View Post
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# 12
07-11-2013, 02:07 PM
They can only nerf so much to support piss poor gameplay and designs. At some point the nerfing must stop or you end up chasing away potential players due to the status qou never being stable enough allow for an effective learning curve.
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# 13
07-11-2013, 02:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
DHCs deal front loaded damage, which is most effective. DCs deal pressure damage with nill effectiveness, and suck they power they are useing for longer periods, making other weapons weaker around them. beam arrays are the worse offenders of this
The problem with buffing beams is that we are going to see te return of beam escorts, and we all know we don't want that. Or even worst, the return of the FAW premades! 5 crusier with extended shields spamming FAW, most boring thing ever (and now powered by aux2bat builds)

We really wan't that back?
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# 14
07-11-2013, 02:25 PM
beams having an inherently higher bleed through could help.

however what needs to be addressed are powers and their costs.
spammy rapid fire attacks doing beter damage against shields, but nothing to hull for example

same with heals, their only cost is the cooldown, which reduces many powers usage to 'spam it as much as you can'.

critical thing missing, is the 'how its delivered and at what cost', not the amount of damage.

more ideas here
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# 15
07-11-2013, 02:27 PM
High to mid level burst oriented builds that use DHCs and/or BOs and/or Torps do ok.

But, general weapon damage over time designed to outpace regen/repair cycles isn't (this actually includes some DHC builds that used to be viable in this manner). Some Dem ETPW FAW Aux2batt builds still do ok for this, but the options are much fewer than they used to be.
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# 16
07-11-2013, 02:32 PM
dhcs dmg is pretty much balanced with other weapons, the problem is those ships that can keep up with the firing arc, its harder for a cruiser to broadside than an escort to hit dhcs
it's not the ship or the build, it's the atitude
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# 17
07-11-2013, 02:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by playhard88 View Post
The problem with buffing beams is that we are going to see te return of beam escorts, and we all know we don't want that. Or even worst, the return of the FAW premades! 5 crusier with extended shields spamming FAW, most boring thing ever (and now powered by aux2bat builds)

We really wan't that back?
beam escorts were only 'good' before all the power creep. they dont do more damage with beams then a 2 AtB fleet excelsior can with beams now. it would not buff escorts, DHCs would still be a better choice for them.
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Originally Posted by lordlalo View Post
I just wanted to say, I've never seen a more disturbing avatar
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# 18
07-11-2013, 03:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
beam escorts were only 'good' before all the power creep. they dont do more damage with beams then a 2 AtB fleet excelsior can with beams now. it would not buff escorts, DHCs would still be a better choice for them.
as i said, lets go back to the FAW crusiers now powered by aux2bat.
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# 19
07-11-2013, 03:15 PM
It's a complicated matter.

DHCs vs. Beam Array

The DHCs will always do 1.74:1 the DPV of the Beam Array.
The DHCs will always do 1.45:1 the DPS of the Beam Array.

The following numbers are not "real" numbers - they're just an example of the issue this causes.

A) If the Array does 100 damage, the DHCs do 174 damage. +74 damage.
B) If the Array does 500 damage, the DHCs do 870 damage. +370 damage.
C) If the Array does 1000 damage, the DHCs do 1740 damage. +740 damage.
D) If the Array does 2000 damage, the DHCs do 3480 damage. +1480 damage.
E) If the Array does 5000 damage, the DHCs do 8700 damage. +3700 damage.

Take a target with 50,000 hull.

A) The DHCs will 0 hull it in ~69.1% of the time of the Array.
The Array will take 500 shots and ~624 seconds.
The DHCs will take ~288 shots and ~431 seconds.

D) The DHCs will 0 hull it in ~71% of the time of the Array.
The Array will take 25 shots and ~31 seconds.
The DHCs will take 15 shots and ~22 seconds.

Have to keep in mind that the Array has a 4/5 cycle and the DHCs have a 2/3 cycle. In a 15 second period, the Array will have fired 12 times to the 10 times of the DHCs.

Okay, but that target's going to have some resistance. Let's give it 35%.

D) The DHCs will 0 hull it in ~64.6% of the time of the Array.
The Array will take ~39 shots and ~48 seconds.
The DHCs will take ~21 shots and ~31 seconds.

With adding resist, the speed at which the DHCs 0 hull compared to the Array increases. It took the DHCs ~9 seconds longer than it did without the resists. It took the Array ~17s longer than it did without the resists.

But hey, it's not just a target sitting there with hull and resists. Let's add in a 1000 heal every 15s from a fake AtS-like ability.

D) The DHCs will 0 hull it in ~63.3% of the time of the Array.
The Array will take ~40 shots and ~49 seconds.
The DHCs will take ~21 shots and ~31 seconds.

That's a minor increase, eh? Let's make the heal 2000 every 15s.

D) The DHCs will 0 hull it in ~61.5% of the time of the Array.
The Array will take ~42 shots and ~52 seconds.
The DHCs will take ~22 shots and ~32 seconds.

So what is this showing us?

Against a target with no resists and no healing, the benefit the DHCs have over the Array decreases as more damage is done. The difference between how long it takes for them to 0 the hull decreases.

Against a target with resists and healing, the benefit the DHCs have over the Array increases. The difference between how long it takes for them to 0 the hull increases.

TLDR#1: It's the resists/healing in the game causing weapons other than DHCs the issues they are having in comparison. The higher the resists and the more healing done, the better the DHCs are.

One of the suggestions that has been made is to change the firing cycle of other weapons to match the 2/3 of the DHCs. Sticking with our DHCs vs. Beam Array, let's look at what that would mean.

First, let's fine our new damage for the Array. I'll stay with example D) from above - the 2000 DPV Array. A 2000 DPV Array is a 1600 DPS Array. Converting this from a 4/5 to a 2/3 cycle would result in it being a 2400 DPV Array (still a 1600 DPS Array).

So let's go through our examples again.

50,000 hull with no resists and no healing.

The DHCs will 0 hull it in ~71% of the time of the Array.
The Array will take ~21 shots and ~31 seconds.
The DHCs will still take 15 shots and ~22 seconds.

Again, that's without changing the DPS of the Array - just the firing cycle. The DHCs still take the target out in ~71% of the time of the Array as they did when when the Array had a 4/5 cycle.

50,000 hull with the 35% resists but no healing.

The DHCs will 0 hull it in ~63.3% of the time of the Array.
The Array will take ~33 shots and ~49 seconds.
The DHCs will still take ~21 shots and ~31 seconds.

Unexpected, eh? This actually worked more in favor of the DHCs than the Array. Fewer shots but actually taking longer? Remember, 4/5 is 12 shots in 15s and 2/3 is 10 shots in 15s. A 2/3 firing cycle would make things worse.

50,000 hull with the 35% resists and the 2000 heal every 15s.

The DHCs will 0 hull it in ~61.5% of the time of the Array.
The Array will take ~35 shots and ~52 seconds.
The DHCs will still take ~22 shots and ~32 seconds.

Wait, so changing to a 2/3 cycle while keeping the DPS the same didn't fix anything?

TLDR#2: A 2/3 cycle won't fix the issue. It's the resists/healing in the game causing weapons other than DHCs the issues they are having in comparison. The higher the resists and the more healing done, the better the DHCs are.

But VD, man...this is PvP - screw DPS...what about the spike?

Okay, so in changing the DPV of the Array for the 2/3 cycle - we also changed the Ratio. It's no longer 1.74:1 for the DHCs over the Array. Yeah, it's only 1.6. /cough The DHCs are still going to do 60% more damage than the Array.

That's before taking into account the innate CrtD of the DHCs as well. So let's do a basic critical for each - just one shot - not taking into account any other buffs/skills/gears/etc (so just +50% damage for the Array and +60% damage for the DHCs).

Array Crit! 3600 damage!
DHCs Crit! 6144 damage!

The DHCs did around 71% more damage than the Array.

Still, what about a single crit 4/5 Array vs. single crit 2/3 Array?

4/5 Crit! 3000 damage!
2/3 Crit! 3600 damage!

Er...+20% damage.

TLDR#3: The base damage of the DHCs give it an edge. A 2/3 cycle won't fix the issue. It's the resists/healing in the game causing weapons other than DHCs the issues they are having in comparison. The higher the resists and the more healing done, the better the DHCs are.

So why do DHCs have the base damage they do? They have the damage they do because of their limited firing arc. But is that arc as difficult to maintain as it was?

I'd say that's subjective. I'd say that it was the same for Escort vs. Escort but easier for Escort vs. Cruiser. Face it, Escorts got a better boost.

But all in all, for the most part that hasn't changed...so nothing will change.

TLDR#4: There's a reason so many new ships are Tac heavy and can use DHCs. Shouldn't we be renting floaters and working toward our...oh yeah...Risian Corvettes? The only thing that's going to change is that we'll either walk away from the game or we'll end up flying boats that can use DHCs. These threads accomplish nothing...
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# 20
07-11-2013, 03:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
It's a complicated matter.

Much math that you didn't need to do.

These threads accomplish nothing...[/color]
It really isn't that complicated at all. It's very simple. Look at the difference between the ships that are likely to be mounting DHC and ships that are likely to be mounting Beams.

That's essentially it.

This has been beaten over and over. Wow Crit D matters? Who knew?

Anyway. It is the differences between these ship types and the underlying mechanics and mitigation strategies implemented by the devs that cause this. And we know how and why that happened.

This isn't news. But I see the Crit D is catching on, so perhaps there's hope for general enlightenment.
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